New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC

[kiwi285]

This class is really making great strides and I am sure will be a great showcase for historic racing in NZ. I personally would like to see the U3 litre cars continue to race with the V8. Back in the day and even at the BMW Festival it was the sight of the smaller cars playing dragon slayers that got the crowd on their feet. There is nothing like a smaller car mixing it up with cars that it normally shouldn't be able to race with, that creates interest for the spectators.

Roll on September for the first race and ongoing news of cars being comtemplated by people in the country.

[jim short]

You hit the nail dead centre,I will never understand how this latest follow the leader racing please anyone except the car in front,,But they are so much faster you say,,Rubish I remember at Bay Park when the Colonge Capri came screaming down the back straight{in those days most folk sat on the back straight }the noise as they flew towards us was scarey hell I had never seen cars so quickthere lap times a 1. 3or close it some yrs ago no doubt David will have a record ,The point I am trying to make that 20 odd yrs later my first yr.in Sports Sedans I was doing 1.3 after 5yrs my best was 1.03 and if I had the money for 4 new tyres all at once and a fresh motor ,may have broken the magic minute.I still navent got the point out never did it feel fast!! so if these latest cars are 10..20..or even 40mph faster it doesent make a beter race and I will bet 2 bob the only time they are close is out braking each other remember when Draky couldnt beat Baird he would run into him,, Hell I have some vidio of Jim Clark crossing the line at Puke sidways through the fence and hedge with at least two minis pushing him and there top speed was what 120??? That is racing!!

[Kiwiboss]

At this stage, and for September's Ice breaker the U3L Saloons will be in with HMC cars, the plan is to do the same for Denny Hulme next Jan. At BMW offcourse there were a few small saloons that dealt to a couple of the bigger V8's and that folks, is what the crowd wants to see, just like to the ol days and this is why we classic race isn't? otherwise why do we do it? sure is fun. By reversing the top 10 keeps the excitement but also minimizes any possible damage, thats why we don't do a complete reverse grid. And then if it rains those U3L cars come into there own!! somewhere along the way the field gets leveled out, all just great damn FUN.

Dale M

[Parnelli]

Hi Dale, As far as the format for HMC races goes , inclusion of the U3L class cars is fantastic for the public to see and a true reflection of the races in the 60’s. I would like to suggest that if we want to put on an even better show for our fans them we should look at introduction some complete reverse grid races and some full handicap races – slowest off the front. Now I’ve heard the arguments that this will only lead to crashes presumably brought about by the fast cars ( or should that be drivers ) not tolerating being held up by slower cars but, if the cars really are the stars then these drivers will have to accept that they don’t have to win every race! This scenario has been run by the PMC’s for more than a decade with very little damage resulting. Everyone will be able to observe this at this weekends Supertourer meeting which I believe is being supported by PMC. This same philosophy should in my opinion be adopted by the likes of Supertourers as well , because no-one wants to see the same cars at the front of every race. What do you all think ?

[Kiwiboss]

Absolutely Dave, im happy to look at any senareo that makes HMC/Classic Saloon racing look good and interesting, and as you stated if the "Cars are REALLY the Stars" them the faster car/drivers should show caution passing slower vehicles. Its about driver education i guess and as we have further HMC events were better driver edicate is shown we will look at this!! It is very difficult in Classic racing as there are so many variances/speed differences in the vehicles, but its nice to see everyone have there day on the podium!! and with all the inquiry's i've been feilding 50% has been about sorting out that persons "mindset" and although i'll get no thanks for it, im actually sorting out the other old car racing groups as well by tell some persons that if you have a "want to win at all cost" MO, HMC is not your group!!

All this is growning pains for HMC but we'll get there. Lets see where we go from here

Dale M

[AMCO72]

Dale, Dave, everybody......get off the grass!! Motoracing is about winning. Always has been, always will be. I dont care what you say to competitors out there, they are out to get to the front, because that is where they THINK they should be. The 'mindset' that you talk about is just that, a 'mindSET' and it wont change, and no amount of lecturing by the 'Great Helmsman' is going to make the blindest bit of difference. If it wasn't about racing, few of these drivers would be there, and I challenge anyone to say otherwise.
My car is a case in point. One meeting it is driven by a professional race-car driver, the next by a doddery old Grandpa, and the driving styles, and lap times reflect that. Having said all that, Parnells suggestion of reverse grids and handicaps is a great idea which I think should be implemented vigorously, especially handicaps, as I'm not so keen on reverse grids. However, EVERYONE I talk to says it is TOO hard and too much trouble, and yet the best racing of any sort I have ever seen, have been handicaps. Actually I think there is LESS potential damage is this type of racing, as it is usually the first lap when all the trouble happens, bunched up fields, dodgy overtaking etc, but with a handicap the field is spread out and passing manoevers usually take place in slightly less risky situations.
Now Dale you are a racer, pure and simple, you are out there to drive that bloody Mustang as hard as it will go, and if you can sneak past a slightly slower competitor you will......I have seen you do it. But as you are often, not to say usually, in front of the pack you are often calling the tune. Dennis Marwood has famously said that he cant see the point of handicap races. Well that is OK for him because he was usually out the front, but there are a number of drivers behind him who make up the bulk of the field, and without them there would be no field!!! And you cant rely on inclement weather to even up the fields either.
I fully support any move towards handicap racing in our classes, because as the laps wind down you get to see some pretty special car RACING going on. Yes the cars are the stars, but without the drivers the cars would be show pieces only.
SCH Davis has said......'Racing is a wonderful game. Drivers experience that strangely fascinating mixture of good fortune and disaster, of difficulties and sudden unexpected luck, which makes the whole thing what it is'.

[AMCO72]

By the way......reverse grids only work where cars are all of SIMILAR performance. In HMC we have a lap time difference between the fastest and slowest of about 10 seconds. A reverse grid race in HMC would result in the fast boys catching and overtaking the slower ones by the end of the first lap, and then it's cheery-oh, see you later! So is not much point. Yes I know that SOME drivers will contrive to get a good spot in a handicap, but they soon get caught out and put in their place....literally.

[Howard Wood]

Gerald, I'm not going to argue with you either way about the mentality or mindset of drivers, far too much of a mine field!

The issue with HMC and U3L regarding reverse grids or handicap is more about sector speed differentials. For example, the smaller cars might be quicker through the infield at Hampton but will always get blown off up the hill to the start finish line. That is part of the fun for both drivers and spectators. With a reverse grid or handicap race making a pass on a slower car stick becomes bloody hard because if the next car in the queue holds the smaller car up through the infield, come the next straight, the big car (and half a dozen of his mates) will blow by again. Making any real progress through the field will be pretty hard in a smaller car without resorting to some desperate moves.

I reckon the format we have now is pretty much spot on, after all it is Dale's parade! The BMW open class has full handicap races and believe me the speed differential throws up some pretty ugly situations. So much so that the class is being split into an under and over 2 litre grids for next year.

[Dave Silcock]

By the way......reverse grids only work where cars are all of SIMILAR performance. In HMC we have a lap time difference between the fastest and slowest of about 10 seconds. A reverse grid race in HMC would result in the fast boys catching and overtaking the slower ones by the end of the first lap, and then it's cheery-oh, see you later! So is not much point. Yes I know that SOME drivers will contrive to get a good spot in a handicap, but they soon get caught out and put in their place....literally.

I could not agree more Foggy, even if you are the fastest what is the point of driving around at the front all day. When I raced my Cooper Vincent in Historics it was quite often the fastest car, if it did hot break, and winning the scratch race and then starting off the back of the grid in subsequent races told every one you were the man. And then what fun seeing how many you can pass before the end. What I could never understand was the driver so keen to win he goes real slow in the scratch race so he can win on handicap. I mean what a wanker? By the way Crunch is being most helpfull re roll cage on the Blue car, will keep you all posted

[AMCO72]

Howard, I'm not going to argue with you either, because you are VASTLY more experienced than I am. I can see your point about speed at different parts of the circuit though, and you say that without resorting to some 'desperate' moves in the smaller capacity cars, progress is going to be difficult. So I guess we, the smaller cars are always going to be following the bigger capacity cars. Now even you will say that it is nice to win once in a while, as you did brilliantly in a wet race at the last Festival, so unless there is some rain, and who in their right mind would want that, the finishing order is pretty much a forgone conclusion.
I know this is not only about winning, but drivers who go out and race, and say they dont care about winning, are being ever so slightly untruthfull......I think!
Interesting about the BMW class. I think they were going to have to be split up anyway with the numbers turning up.
As you say, It's Dales parade, and we don't want it to 'Rain on his Parade'.

[Kiwiboss]

Listen here guys,(and Gerald) historic and Classic racing is NOT about winning otherwise why would you choose the car you have? the top 10 reverse was a safer format option for our "classic racing" group and probably what we will do again next year. I have bad feelings about full reverse grids at classic events when we have a huge speed difference and vehicle size, now remember! im only talking about classic/Historic racing, not any other racing class, not interested in what they do!! for HMC i want safety and common sense courtesy on the track, if i don't get it i will growl(probably won't do any good) .

Gerald, all i can say is "Bullshit" not everyone in our group finds it the utmost importantance to WIN, certainly the ones i talk to are in it for the enjoyment(i know you are too) as i am and to me its the ONLY importanceNow Dale you are a racer, pure and simple, you are out there to drive that bloody Mustang as hard as it will go, and if you can sneak past a slightly slower competitor you will......I have seen you do it. But as you are often, not to say usually, in front of the pack you are often calling the tune. so that is true but not at the cost of damaging another competitors vehicle, the person, or anyone else. I know this because in other groups i've raced with over the years i've actually slow'd and pull over slightly when i have an overkeen racer on my bumper, it aint worth the damage so i let them go, and so i get beat, never bothered me or anyone else!! what i do like is winning the race in the pits, LOL. And Dave, so correct! what fun is a grid start and disappearing into the sunset, thats wanker material in classic racing. When i raced with the Custaxie and the Ferrari at McLaren i was faster but came 3rd and made a race of it, you should have seen the look on robbies and the publics face after that race, that was more of a thrill to me than clearing out.

Also, if one really finds it nessary to win were the playing feild is unlevel they on drugs!! i have seen a few so called "hot shots'" jump out of minor race class's were they had superior equipment over everyone else, into a Teir 1 group where the equipment is level and find themselves last!! i always get a chuckle with that.

Howard, this IS NOT Dales parade, we are all in this together if we want to make it work, im only the "spark plug" at the moment and i expect help from you all, there will come a day i will want to back away, and still see HMC/classic racing with sensable rules keep growing.

Of to America tomorrow but i'll be keeping an eye on you guys from over there.

Dale M

[jim short]

COME on ,we are talking old cars not slow cars...The old way was the best way like a lot of things the world is changing,mainly for the worst.. A grid start then a handicap worked well depending on the handicapper the one thing Eric ?was good at ,,So the fast car starts a lap behind so what.I found in a grid start you didnt really pass anyone, but the handicap was great got a chance to show some, how good I was ,Huxford said on tv he didnt like handicaps but in the grid starts he was lapping the slower half,, after two thirds through the race ,, so were is the difference The modern stuff the Sports and GTs the crowd and I mean the crowd at Manfeild and Taupo loved the handicap ,,I may be a bit one eyed there but I have never seen a car like that v8 Juno that was not running properly start in the pit lane and give that 850bhp Camaro almost half a lap start and a beating first time this year the future in spite of a lot of negetivity is looking good on all fronts

[jim short]

Yes Amco got to agree with Dale {partly} reminds me of the rich chap had the v8 Aston at a taccoc puke,Mires or close ,anyhow I passed him down the front straight{only time a photographer was ther e ,},have e great shot if Russ would like a copy anyhow next meeting and back then taccoc had a meeting every 3months?/ I had a repeat win .he was so pi..ed of as he had gone from injectors to webbers or the other way to improve his pace {the problem he was slow over Rothmans } now in 1964 Bob Jane said after he set the fastest lap in his Jag he could go from the hairpin to Railway with out lifting off,.It took me some time before I managed that I understand the Aston was swapped for a helecopter,I also found Champion very scarey to go around with out lifting off , but I told myself I saw Leanard and Richards go round side by side !!!Dave will fight me again on this one but I am older and dont car e

[AMCO72]

Well, thats got good old roaringseason going again. Was getting a bit dead. Bring it on. Bullshit and all!!!!!

[woody]

Angus got a good plug on TV3 news tonight.

[screwdriver]

At the risk of repetition, the AES & Arrow Wheels series points races are all handicaps and they don't have the speed differential problems, as the groups are split, not by capacity, but by (proven) lap times.
The handicapper retains all past history and that means that sand-bagging generally isn't possible.
Engine capacity means diddly-squat, as those who raced at the Whangarei street races will confirm. The fastest car there was Murray Sinclair's 1600cc Lotus Elan.
AMCO's times in the Mini are not the same as the times set by Angus and that is fine, as neither is then advantaged or disadvantaged.
We know there are well driven, well modified 1300cc MG Midgets that are faster than more standard or less well driven MGB V8s and MGBs.
Splitting any classic group just by capacity, disadvantages and discourages drivers of more standard cars, regardless of engine capacity.
The 3 litre limit class is generally somewhat pointless when you look at the range of lap times as the speed differential is massive.
HMC is aiming specifically at (large) Muscle Cars - which is great, as the sheer size of larger cars tends to put off the drivers of smaller, faster cars if on the same grid, on the grounds of safety.
The under 3 litre class is trying to mix highly modified almost race cars with fairly standard road cars and meanwhile, a Jaguar Mk2 or XJ6 is totally out in the cold. Sorry, but we have to look at ALL classic cars and see where they fit as none should be isolated.
Handicap racing is always going to be a lottery but at least the fastest and the slowest guys get to see other cars, which isn't always the case in scratch races.
Unfortunbately, you only need one yellow flag at the Pukekohe hairpin for example, to totally upset the finishing order, but who cares? Study the results of past handicap races and you'll see anything from blanket finishes by a whole swag of cars to runaway wins and for every one, there is a good reason.
We all have to accept that the sheer variety of cars, ages, capacities and driver ability, are what Classics are all about, so any talk of a level playing field is total BS. You can't have a level playing field, with 7 litres vs 1000cc, but that doesn't mean you can't have great racing, as winning is indeed irrelevent and we need to support the regular supporters of each grid.

[conrod]

Angus got a good plug on TV3 news tonight.

good to see that, thats the class he should be racing in, I hope it goes well for him this weekend

Meanwhile, if anyone has a lazy $100K then this has got to be a bargain price for a beautiful Boss 302, ready to race in HMC:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-479975245.htm

[Oldfart]

Screwdriver, if you talk to some of the competitors in AES/Arrow you will find a level of dissatisfaction over the handicaps. A number of instances where a known faster car is placed anything up to 6 positions ahead. I know that it always difficult, however it is pretty obvious that the results from the scratch race should indicate the reversed grid for the points scoring handicaps, and this has not been the case very often. I have seen situations where cars which have finished midfield are started on handicap at what is almost the back of the field.
Perhaps a bit too much reliance on lap times. It was suggested to me that a better method would be to use the race time or at least a number of laps, that way the slow starting, but eventually quicker cars are evened out. That is possibly what will be trialled at VCC events.

[pallmall]

I can see this thread getting away from its original intent, to promote and provide news on the HMC.

The valid discussion on the running of historic events should perhaps be taken to a new thread?

[Oldfart]

I can see this thread getting away from its original intent, to promote and provide news on the HMC.

The valid discussion on the running of historic events should perhaps be taken to a new thread?

Yep