New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC

[Steve Holmes]

Howard, you are right. With all these 'PIRANHA's coming on stream, we will be swamped with them, almost like the E30's. I can see Dales HMC class being able to fill a full grid at the Festival in January, so us 'little' guys will be out in the cold. I think a few fellas out there have done their sums on this one, and decided the old Capri is the way to go in HMC. I would honestly not want to see dozens of them on the track together. That is one of the things that is so good about HMC......the variety of machinery. But isn't that orange car a ripper!!!! AND, if even our 'Great Helmsman', Chairman Holmes can get it wrong,[or was that just a carefully contrived piece of journalism to draw attention to the issue], what hope is there for others who don't read this forum to get all the ideas being knocked about here. What happens Dale, if 40+ cars are entered....dont laugh, it could happen if this momentum carries on. In other words, if people put their money where their mouth is, this is going to be the ALPHA, or should that be ALFA [oldfart] class of the racing at the Festival. Might just have to take up flag marshalling.

I was just posting that pic because Grant was talking about building a replica of the Team Gunston Perana that raced in SA. This car is a good example of a car thats a couple of steps too far for HMC, with those wheel flares. But I'm with you, I think its a great looking car, but it couldn't race in HMC like that.

I guess the way HMC has to be viewed is that every car in the field needs to have an achilles heel, be that its too heavy, too big, or too small, or has medieval suspension. Thats what makes a muscle car a muscle car. It goes like stink in a straight line, but everything else is a little questionable. Thats why the punters love them. In the case of the Perana, its achilles heel is that wide wheels can't be fit within the confines of the guards, so 8" is about the limit. So, while lighter and possibly more nimble, getting power to the ground will be the challenge. Same too with the Chevrolet Firenza Can-Am.

[Howard Wood]

While I agree with everyone that a Perana would make a great HMC car I also think a Rover P6 V8 also fits the spirit of the class especially as it would also suffer from the same problem of limited tyre width (which Gerald, Angus and I need).

For what its worth, given their race history, a Mk2 Jag fits well too although there is no way you could get enough horse power to seriously bother Dale and his mates.

[AMCO72]

I think I will reserve my judgement on the MkII Jaguar until I have seen, heard, and driven Dave's 'Blue Car' If Dave is saying it is way better than he had hoped, I believe him. He is not the sort of Guy to make idle boasts without backing them up with action, and 400+ hp is getting up there.
I have a solution to the tyre width inequality problem. Howard, you I, Angus and other cars that cant fit BIG rubber under their arches, should be able to run on slicks, which are still not very wide, but might grip a little bit better for a more level playing field. Yes????. I'm serious.......as the tyre thing seems to be one of the big issues in this class. Does Neil Tollich run a P6?....that thing can go.

[jim short]

Another real top secret what about the 1976 ex Tullias E Type that swamped the Camaros thats on the water .roll on next yr.

[Steve Holmes]

While I agree with everyone that a Perana would make a great HMC car I also think a Rover P6 V8 also fits the spirit of the class especially as it would also suffer from the same problem of limited tyre width (which Gerald, Angus and I need).

For what its worth, given their race history, a Mk2 Jag fits well too although there is no way you could get enough horse power to seriously bother Dale and his mates.

Yeah you're right about both cars Howard, but if they were included in that list, do you think anyone would actually build one for HMC?

[Steve Holmes]

Dale,

It is 1 year today since your first post regarding the HMC series (although obvviously a hell of a lot of work had gone on behind the scenes before then). Pretty amazing progress, interest and results in those 12 months, congratulations and thanks.

Now we need someone to take up the challenge for the under 3 litre class.........?

Wow, how about that! I hadn't realised that. Well spotted Howard.

Yeah I agree, it'd be great to see someone step up and take control of the U3 group. There is a lot of potential in that class.

[Kiwiboss]

One year on for HMC, thanks for reminding me/us Howard, were did that year go? and weve only had 2 events, seems like we've been racing HMC the whole year, LOL

Look guys, a Jaguar is not out of the question(for HMC), if anyone wants to build one he/her needs to put a proposal to us 3 HMC directors, it would get utmost consideration! i wouldn't be so sure about Rovers though. The Eligability list is for vehicles that automaticly quailify, what we consider Muscle Cars, and covers quite a range, infact covers mostly all vehicles that are already in HMC or been built, it was the oddball vehicles we had issue's with, a 240Z Datsun Sarab chev V8, a Bolwell Nagari is just 2 and there are many others i have since found out, its easier to have a list and control it from there. Also you must understand that any Under 3L T&C cars don't have to apply to HMC rules, my concern is only controlling the over 3L HMC cars. If under 3L cars are allowed more freedoms than the HMC cars, thats fine by me, but would still want to see T&C apply, and Howard, Gerald, we still need to support each other, i hope both you(and others) will be with us at the Ice Breaker in September? Im already fielding enquiry about UL3 cars which im happy to steer in the rite direction until some can take it over.

I know my Mustang, and several other V8's have a upper performance advantage over you guys but as you know there's plenty of others that you two have an advantage over as well, and then if it rains? so to have our group mixed at Classic events is just fantastic for us the racer and the public, lets just keep it that way and see what the future holds. I still look at old Baypark pictures that shows the grids of V8's and small saloons, just like we had at the festival this year.

As for the perception of a grid full of Perana's/Mustangs and others, i wouldn't be so sure Jim/Gerald/Howard, as we know lots of interest but when it comes to fronting up? i've seen it all before. We are still aways from 40 car grids, infact my personal view is that we don't want anymore than 25 to 28 HMC vehicles, still enough to have great racing, anymore just turns into a nightmare, once again i look back to the grids of days gone by, we feilded far more cars at the Festival than back in the day.

I don't believe that next years Denny Hulme will be much different than what we had this year, a few new cars for sure, but it'll be the same old competitors with the couple of newbe's thrown in, moneys still tight for other interested competitiors to come onboard, were still atleast 3 years away from having HMC at a mantainable level. It has taken other groups longer than this.

Dale M

[jim short]

Dale you have taken the fun out of the debate with all your comonsence,you know as a kid I used to poke the dogs next door with a stick

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Dale, I admire what you are doing but it is not my thing and I will not be putting my car up for consideration. If it races at all it will be as I built it for T&C. I consider all saloons should be fully trimmed and not to be, is just one step away from the guys who turn left at night. My car is fortunately a road car as well,I would not at this stage, build a car that was'nt, I have been waiting four months for a log book and roll cage certification. If this crap goes on much longer I shall put in the tall gearing and head off to Mt Cook for the weekend. Even allowing for to odd speeding ticket it would be a lot cheaper.
Dave S

[Howard Wood]

[Also you must understand that any Under 3L T&C cars don't have to apply to HMC rules, my concern is only controlling the over 3L HMC cars. If under 3L cars are allowed more freedoms than the HMC cars, thats fine by me, but would still want to see T&C apply, and Howard, Gerald, we still need to support each other, i hope both you(and others) will be with us at the Ice Breaker in September? Im already fielding enquiry about UL3 cars which im happy to steer in the rite direction until some can take it over.

I know my Mustang, and several other V8's have a upper performance advantage over you guys but as you know there's plenty of others that you two have an advantage over as well, and then if it rains? so to have our group mixed at Classic events is just fantastic for us the racer and the public, lets just keep it that way and see what the future holds. I still look at old Baypark pictures that shows the grids of V8's and small saloons, just like we had at the festival this year.

As for the perception of a grid full of Perana's/Mustangs and others, i wouldn't be so sure Jim/Gerald/Howard, as we know lots of interest but when it comes to fronting up? i've seen it all before. We are still aways from 40 car grids, infact my personal view is that we don't want anymore than 25 to 28 HMC vehicles, still enough to have great racing, anymore just turns into a nightmare, once again i look back to the grids of days gone by, we feilded far more cars at the Festival than back in the day.

I don't believe that next years Denny Hulme will be much different than what we had this year, a few new cars for sure, but it'll be the same old competitors with the couple of newbe's thrown in, moneys still tight for other interested competitiors to come onboard, were still atleast 3 years away from having HMC at a mantainable level. It has taken other groups longer than this.

Dale M[/QUOTE]

Don't worry Dale, I'll be there with bells on, can't wait.

The grid numbers back in the day is something we all see through rose tinted glasses, especially compared with the historic stuff today but also the NZ V8's. Ironically its the classes like Formula Ford which in the early '70s had so many entries that qualifying was required at the big meetings that today stuggle with entries.

Dave S, not sure about T & C but a Sched K car like mine has to be fully trimmed.

[Dave Silcock]

Howard , Just checked only the carpet from the drivers footwell may be removed.
Dave S.

[Kiwiboss]

Mike Rorison's 67 Trans Am Mustang back on 15" wheels and now fitted with a 4 Speed Jerico!! already for a HMC work out. Mike wont be at the Ice Breaker but deffinately Denny Hulme in Jan 2013

[Dave Silcock]

Really cool car, good to see some carpet and a matching set of gauges. The one I drove had Stewart Warner dials, still available from XKs Unlimited in California

[Rod Grimwood]

Nice, period type wheels make it also.

[Kiwiboss]

Rod, Dave, yes!! this is the NEW face of New Zealand Historic/Classic Saloon racing under HMC and Mikes Mustang is surely what we want, and more is coming!!! for anyone else viewing these pictures and visiting this forum and wanting more info about HMC and regulations, feel free to contact me.

I currently have a competitors 67 Camaro in my W/shop been converted back to HMC reg's, 15" wheels, etc and will look similar to the above Mustang, just like days gone by!!!

PS: the interest from the South Island has been fantastic.

Dale M

[Rod Grimwood]

Dale, don't let Cedric know you have a Camaro in your workshop, plead innocent to everything.

[Rod Grimwood]

Dale, Think you would have seen this little sign on a couple of cars years back. Still got one on front quarter light window of Escort been there for about 25 years. It was also on rear wing but bigger. Found a couple in drawers while searching for old log book. Kennard had these put on some t/shirts of his car that he gave the boys after they did overnighter on his car from Bay Park shunt.

[screwdriver]

I am surprised that those with smaller cars (ie non-muscle) haven't mentioned that the AES and Arrow Wheels series copes perfectly well with Jaguars and even "Peranas" with flares, as long as they run on road tyres and are internally trimmed.
The AES and Arrow's handicapping may not be perfect (when is it, when so many factors can upset the results, such as the occasional yellow flag?) but it they have a long enough history to have an established structure and bags of variety.
The fact that as established series, they don't get invited to partake in the festivals is up to the festival organisers, but at least AMCO72 would be in the correct class!
Maybe the convenor's reluctance to totally embrace the current T & C rules in their entirety, as they are seen to be flawed, might have something to do with it?

Howard - a max grid of 28 is not on. Look at the economics of running a meeting and then you'll understand why. As a spectator, promoter or flaggie, or even driver, there is nothing worse than small grids.

[Kiwiboss]

Dale, Think you would have seen this little sign on a couple of cars years back. Still got one on front quarter light window of Escort been there for about 25 years. It was also on rear wing but bigger. Found a couple in drawers while searching for old log book. Kennard had these put on some t/shirts of his car that he gave the boys after they did overnighter on his car from Bay Park shunt.

Arr yes Rod, the "Fridge Club" how could we forget!!!LOL

Haven't seen Cedee in awhile!!!

Dale M

[Kiwiboss]

Last weekend was the Annual Motorsport NZ AGM and workshops in Auckland, I was asked to attend as an observer by HRC, this was my first Motorsport AGM conference which I found very interesting. Off course Tier 1 was what interested most and the expense that goes with this group, but not why I was there or what interested me though in some way it affects us all, it appeared to me to be a big game of chess!! Friday morning was for Workshop discussion’s amongst all groups, I was invited to sit in on the Historic and Classic commission workshop and it was great to meet the H&C delegates and talk amongst them and issues at hand, and of course Historic Muscle Cars was a topic of interest and discussion which I left truly believing these guys are behind HMC, I have been asked to attend further Classic and Historic workshops which I’m glad to be involved in and can only firm up the position of HMC. Meeting the South Island delegates, classic clubs and event organisers was also fantastic and made me believe that HMC has made inroads into “their” way for thinking for future South Island classic meetings and as I told them, the interest from down south has been amazing, so great discussion all-round. I also enjoyed talking with Julian Leitch about technical issues involving the older classic cars and having great discussion with Jim Barclay about next year’s Denny Hulme and future events. So for a first timer I came away positive though like anything Motorsport, it takes time. For anyone contemplating racing in Historic Muscle Cars, buying, building and converting and existing vehicle I can assure you we are here to stay, but remember WE are only about Historic/Classic racing.

Prior to the AGM I’ve had a couple of minor misunderstandings when talking with interested parties about racing in HMC. I've had to frequently point out that HMC is NOT a race series, most likely won’t be on TV, doesn't have points or series rounds, but just like Historic racing overseas its about, well, just that "Historic Racing". More importantly it’s about racing in a gentlemanly manor where the cars are raced to, and presented in a high standard with the appearance of days gone by, to a set of rules that applies to everyone. Of course i understand that this is not for everyone but don't think for one minute its about having a gentle Sunday drive around a race track, this is still a motor racing class, just operated in a manner were we all respect each other’s pride and joy. When I say respect, I mean just that, with nothing to win, why bother making that last second suicide pass. So with this in mind! and with what we are pushing for at HMC, if that’s you and your car complies, well we want you then! But we are in no way obligating you to race with and at HMC only events, we are only offering you a compliant Historic race group at Historic/Classic meetings, there are many other class’s and classic meetings all around the country so race were you see fit, even if your vehicle is HMC compliant and you don’t want to race at HRC/HMC events, well that’s OK by us too.

But in the meantime the heat is on!!! Car owners/racers are popping up everywhere. Without a doubt the biggest amount of interest in the last month has been from the South Island, coming via Steve Holmes Classic Car articles. Quite amazing and in true mainland style they want to do it right and make their cars HMC legal. Obviously our fellow HMC mainlanders can't be at every HMC event but some are already planning to be at Denny Hulme next January, good on you guys and we welcome you.

Peter Stevenson of Mt Maunganui has purchased this 65 B Production Mustang Fastback race car out of America. This vehicle has been a raced for 30 years in the USA and because of the American Vintage Class rules this Mustang pretty much meets HMC spec, only requiring door window glass and a few other minor details to comply. It's already fitted with an all cast iron 310CI engine making 475HP, 15" wheels and tyres, correct body panels and interior trim. When I last spoke with Pete it had just been shipped and he hopes to be September’s Ice Breaker event, great stuff.

You would have viewed our "Eligibility List" from last month, which wont effecting most prospective car builders/racers and existing vehicles, and it has worked already, as we've been approached by one person wishing to build a Valiant VJ Hardtop Coupe for HMC, currently not on the list. However, with the approval of the 3 HMC Directors we have given this person the go ahead, easy as that!! So if it’s not on the list, contact us as you never know. Of course we still want it to be some sort of recognised Muscle Car which isn't hard to establish these days.

We’ve tossed and turned over this issue, but below is the new Front spoiler rules, this has come about from our Australian competitors as the feed back on their cars with a period style front spoiler fitted was positive, so we have taken this onboard for HMC. We struggled with wording on this one but strangely enough we’ve ended up using most of the written word from the 1970 American SCCA Trans Am rule book, below is almost word for word(with a few additions)to suit today’s racing in HMC:

A front spoiler may be mounted on any HMC vehicle regardless of whether or not a front spoiler is recognised as standard or optional for that model, providing such spoiler meets the following requirements. It must be mounted to the front underside body panel, below and to the rear of front bumper location, in a manner which does not change the original frontal appearance. The maximum front spoiler width shall be limited to the car’s front wheel track width centre line (the front track dimension). The vertical dimension from the lowest point on the spoiler may not exceed four inches. Openings may be made in the spoiler for the purpose of ducting air to the front brakes. If a front spoiler is added as above, any standard or optional front spoiler must be removed or modified to conform with the above limitation’s. All spoilers must be a single flat plane and made from Aluminium, Plastic or Fibreglass only and are subject to approval by the HMC Technical Inspector/Directors

With that been said, and although the above rule will now allow me to fit a "Trans Am" type front spoiler to my Mustang, you will find I’ll be doing no such thing, i love it just the way it is. Regardless of what front spoiler I use it will not make one "iota" difference in how the Mustang handles or goes. To those that do so use the regulations as above, I’m sure it will look good and it’s the “looks” we are after.

There will be NO June HMC E-mailout, expect to receive the next one in July.

Below is next summer’s race dates: Please note, Possibility of a one day TACCOC event Sunday Nov 4th at Hampton, more to come.

1 - Ice Breaker, 29/30th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is first up this year so aim for this one, you have 4 months!! through the winter I'll keep you all reminded. Once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only have 6 or so cars, so be it. We will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons as well, most of us will be ready to dust of our cars(and ourselves) off by the time this event rolls around.

Also check out the current Classic Car Magazine for Steve Holmes monthly article and ramble about HMC's goings on, we also have further articles in NZV8 and Greg Sstokes has kindly added our race dates to NZ Hot Rod Magazine. Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on the http://www.theroaringseason.com/foru...ral-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s at http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail me for size’s and colour.

That’s it from me again this month, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing field for all. Lets keep the "Classic and Historic" in Classic and Historic racing. And I know I don't need to remind you but remember, "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for May 12, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers dmathers@xtra.co.nz , Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com , Steve Holmes enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz
HRC Members/HMC Directors