Room 370, enter and find yourself in the Twilight Zone.
Room 370, enter and find yourself in the Twilight Zone.
Aha! Satan tries to corrupt the pure - or is it the other way around?Originally Posted by Kiwiboss
Well that's 3 apartments, any spare beds or couches. Entry by Lyon Rouge and contribution to costs!! Just a thought, no pressure LOL
Well, with the Legends this weekend HMC has the HUGE turn out of arrrrr, armmm 5 cars!! hmmmm!! and as Ray would say not viable(I agree) so OK all you critics what are we doing wrong? well its actually 4 cars as Roger Williams 69 Camaro is newbie!! actually its 3 as I shouldn't be there this weekend but? since we started some 3 years ago cars have slowly dwindle away, new builds are slow coming even though interest is still very high but talk is cheap!! even just Monday I had some unknown building a Capri V8 for HMC but once again he'll most likely be a couple of years!! im open to learn so im all ears, give it too me!! Dale M
Well, you asked for it!
Dale, what you have been trying to establish is honourable and you have found out (as we all have) that getting interest is not too difficult. Certainly you have had the best publicity possible, with Steve's articles, plus the support of Tony, Crunch and probably all of the H & C Commission as you are promoting exactly THEY/YOU want.
Getting registrations of interest (ie a registration fee or other commitment) and even a valid car is less easy.
Having then got that sort of support, converting that to cars on the track for a number of meetings is the really tough part, as we are all subjected to limitations of time, finance, health, work and family commitments and for some, overseas demands.
If you adopt a very restrictive set of rules and requirements, then out of the theoretical pool of cars, some will indeed play with you, some will play with a series with less restrictive rules and some are happy enough to merely own or show those cars. Geographic considerations are also valid.
We have 35 cars at the last count for this weekend out of a potential 100 drivers so a 1 in three turn out is pretty good. For your grid to be valid that probably means at least 45 complete and available cars, to get between 15 and 20. How many completed HMC cars are there?
We also try to have a series of 6 or 7 rounds with the best 5 top scores to count and yes, it is still chocolate fish racing but may I suggest that by offering just 4 rounds a season, there may be some who would like more racing? Why go to all the trouble of getting a 100% perfect car for just 4 runs a year - and even then, Murphy's law will dictate that you'll miss at least one anyway!
Every series has its strengths and weaknesses and I have accepted the flack for a pragmatic approach to the cars simply, because I really don't think we have a big enough pool of 'pure cars' (or drivers who are keen to run 'pure' cars), to have a viable series - and we have spread our net much wider than you, on capacity, body style and most of all, make and country of origin.
Had we stuck to the original BMC 4 cylinder series, we would have fallen over at least 16 years ago.
To preserve your integrity, just incorporate not just U3L cars, but all cars with a Schedule K/Appendix K certification or running to the same rules as you run now. (Strict period mods.) However, you can't possibly expect to list all the allowable bits and pieces the way you do for the current HMC, as you just make work for yourself and when that happens, you get into all sorts of strife! There were cars excluded from the U3L group at the Festival for whatever reason, and each driver turned away is going to go elsewhere.
I don't run a muscle car, I don't know how many are around and I certainly have no idea how many cars you have 'in preparation', so the only way I see it progressing is by having classes within a larger group and then maybe you have to look at the race formats that appeal to the drivers.
If the group eventually gets to the stage where you have full grids, then is the time to sub-divide again. Don't give in though as you do have theoretical support both for the series and the philosophy. As you say yourself, talk is cheap, very cheap, but it doesn't make a profit for race promoters.
This time I am going to make 'no comment' for obvious reasons. I have been told I 'don't get' what HMC is all about, and as one of the cars excluded from the U3L group at the Festival, I am going to let other more vocal race car drivers do the talking and taking the flak this time.
Everyone knows who I am rooting for.
Ray, i value your experience, may not always agree but i know i'll get a straight answer after-all you've been doing this for awhile!! Our HMC car pool is alot less than ERC maybe 30 if where lucky and thats not counting the builds underway but out of those 30 some require work to become legal but usually this is not much!! the one area i do agree is some are merely just happy to "own and show" there cars and i've now figured some of these guys out and stopped wasting time on them. Incorporating the U3L saloons is fantastic and show case's how NZ saloon car racing use to be so we will continue with this and some of the U3L guys get a kick out of beating the bigger cars!! we do allow Schedule K/Appendix K certified cars in but they also have vanished? is this just a sign of the times?
Compared to historic racing overseas our HMC rules are reasonably free and easy and due to economics we have allowed the likes of wilwood calipers, aftermarket gearbox's, replacement engine components, etc which allows for easier builds so i don't see this as been too restrictive, if i had my way I'd want the air in the tyres to be from 1960, LOL but as we know that would never work in NZ!! on the other hand if we just adopted a no enforcement rule on the regs we would merely be going down the same road of the other muscle car groups and that been the case why bother then!! with our bigger muscle type cars the modern aftermarket compontry available to increase the performance in all directions can be huge, i can put another 100 HP into my car just by added a set of modern aftermarket cylinder heads for $3K, this is what must stop(hope you get the idea of what im saying here) so restrictive, i don't think so!!
Of the U3L cars the only one excluded from the Festival was Angus because his over driving style and the damaged he cause to 3 cars at the previous festival, this seemed the rite call as we had one incident over both weekends racing this year and even that was minor, otherwise i've had great racing with him but everyone else with a complying vehicle was allowed or are there other U3L cars i don't know about? the previous festival we had a 43 car grid(with 7 Aussies) and this was way too much!! oh well!! the ups and downs of motorsport!! anyway Ray, your input and ideas are valued and thats because i respect someone thats out there doing it.
Dale M
Hi Dale. I think there are a few things coming to play:
1. Economy - spending is down, entree fees, fuel etc cost a lot, and people will pick and choose the events more, I think this year will still have lower entries all round.
2. Your class- it is restrictive, on purpose, but of course you will feel the pinch easier with smaller reserves of runners
3. People like to win - the cost of doing so in your class is probably quite high. Maybe you need some classes within the category, have some reverse grids, handicapped?
4. Eliteness. I think the post you did a while ago showed your opinion of some other classes. Some would not share this, and maybe you need to acknowledge this and be a bit more total picture friendly? maybe encourage events where your group, plus modded cars wtc get together and boost your presence.
5. Time. You are new, not that different from muscle cars, just need time to establish. You may need to run your class within other groups sometimes?
Ps the mini in under 3 litre class. I actually understand you excluding. Angus is no doubt a really fast driver. But in the mini I think he drives at 12/10ths. At leadfoot he spun or hit something every run. If he backed it off a tenth he would have an amazing time, probably the same in your class. In his professional racing I guess that is more accepted, in a fun class, not so much.
Struggling with the eloquence needed to fully express my thoughts stops me adding to this great forum as much as I would like to, but my passion for muscles cars is such, that I will give it a try.
1/ We don’t have enough cashed up supporters in a country of our size to participate in a class where you need $100 K to get on the grid, and then to get any closer to the checkered flag first, will cost a whole lot more than that. I fully accept that winning is not what Historic racing is about but processions don’t turn anyone on.
2/ Given the above , you can not afford to put enthusiastic supporters off by continuing to add more and more unnecessary rules i.e. Rev Limiters, COD’s etc My own car will be an ongoing development as and when funds allow. If every time I upgrade my car, I need to upgrade my COD then forget it.
3/ You need to adopt full reverse grid and handicap races to increase entertainment value for both participants and spectators. If supporters see all cars in the field with an equal chance, then more of them may come out and play.
But mostly you need to be patient and accept that given the extremely high standard set by most of the present cars in the field, then new participants will need both time and money to build their cars.
Importing a Historic car ready to race-cage confirmation and replace perspex with glass- instant gratification. 4 have done this.
Building a car from scratch takes time, sometimes what seems like a year can take 3.There are quite a few out there
Converting an existing car should be an easier option, but its like a house renovation,never that straight forward and the hope of why convert if the rules could change-as if.
Motor racing has never been cheap. I got mine on the track for $35K ,no one told me that this amount wouldnt get me on the grid.
Time runs faster than our cars ever will.
If racing was all I wanted to do -I would run in the 2K class.
Cheaper to replace the car than repair it.
Hey guys we have a race meeting on this weekend, last HRC till Icebreaker, lets just get out and enjoy it
Last edited by John McKechnie; 03-26-2014 at 08:21 PM.
John, importing a vintage race car out of the US is not all about instant gratification, it is also quite economical on the basis of what you get in the car as to pricing out building one. Since I`ve been involved with HMC there has been a lot of `gunnas' going to build this and that and christ knows what else. I`m fortunate enough to own two other road Camaros as well as my race one, and there is quite a big difference from polishing your pride and joy and entering a car show than that of racing side by side well past 100mph.....
That takes a different level of commitment and these are the guys that HMC caters to. When you look at the likes of Nigel McDonald with the ex Red Dawson car, that car conservatively is worth north of $400,000 - far more than most of the Ferraris that were on parade at the Festival -yet he gets out there and gets amongst it. It is not about being elite, it`s more about a group of guys with a common interest in racing period correct muscle cars and celebrating an era of motorsport, plain and simple. The class is not a race series so the critics shouldn`t judge it as one, but once we get a few more currently being built out there, then we will get consistent grid numbers.
Life is not a rehearsal, we are only here once, and HMC also respects those racers who are no longer with us.....
Last edited by fullnoise68; 03-26-2014 at 10:47 PM.
Don't get too down Dale, no one said this was going to be easy although the instant grid numbers from the Aussies probably made it look too easy at the start.
Assuming there is an appetite for a grid of period correct cars from both spectators and competitors the concept will succeed especially given the backing and promotion your series has enjoyed, I for one am 100% behind the concept. Already out of this set back there have been some great suggestions and input here already and it is hard to fault Ray's logic and ideas.
In the short term I believe we need to:
1. Combine HMC and its own car specific rules with a wider Schedule K Saloon class, not limited to U 3 litre. There are quite a number of suitable cars already not to mention existing cars which are not being used because they feel there is nowhere to run.
2. Level the playing field with items such as tyres. The HMC guys started on period Goodyear Blue Streaks but the Aussies quickly showed that their Hoosiers were quicker so those who could afford to changed to those which has spread the field. Also currently with sched K cars there is some grey areas regarding tyres with some running race tyres. Indeed in my view the "Angus problem" occurred simply because with his race tyres his braking distance was so compressed that his closing speed into corners took everyone by surprise. Why not make a DOT rated (but not necessarily NZ road legal) tyre compulsory for all? There are several options available which meet this spec.
3. Introduce handicap and/ or reverse grid races. I had my doubts about the reverse top 10 races at NZFMR but in reality they worked really well with no issues.
4. Keep the focus on driving standards and this applies to all participants. My point 2. regarding tyres should reduce the speed differential up to a point but also the David and Goliath aspect is what attracts spectators (and drivers). Little car/ big car inevitably means the big guys passing on the straights only to be repassed in the corners. There is no point in the big car drivers bitterly complaining about being "blindsided", the onus is on the passing driver to pass safely and the passed driver to allow room, regardless if this is on the straight or a corner!
4. Formalise a series with a points structure and calendar even when running within another class, eg Fast Saloon at Manfeild.
Really good posts there guys, makes for very interesting reading. Steve and John, your comments are really positive. I tend to share a similar positive view, although I'm less at the cold-face than Dale. I look at where HMC started, and I look another 12 - 18 months towards the future, and I feel pretty positive about it.
HMC has been up and running for about 2.5 years. When the rules were first drawn up, there was not one single car in New Zealand that actually fitted them without at least some minor changes required. Dale's Mustang required several changes (eg, wheels, tyres, front a-arms, diff housing etc). There were 10 HMC cars racing at the 2014 Festival in January. There were another 8 - 10 cars that are 100% HMC compliant, and could have been there, but for various reasons, such as financial, or mechanical problems etc (eg, Rodger Cunninghame and Colin Dawson from Invercargill are planning bi-annual visits to the Festival, Craig Stacey had mechanical issues, a couple of others have personal issues etc). Add to that, there are another 10 cars that are either currently being built, or currently being imported out of the US to race in HMC.
Most cars coming to HMC are being built in NZ. Buying a car out of the US is a great idea, and can get you on the track faster, but even that has its challenges, as you still have to find a car that suits your needs, and there isn't a huge pool in the US of available cars. So you have to go looking. And once in NZ, those cars usually require work to comply, either with HMC, MSNZ, or to the owners personal standards. So still a lot of work involved, and commitment made by the owner.
So now you have close to 30 HMC compliant cars. Given the category was started 2.5 years ago, I think thats pretty good. Ray is absolutely right, you'll never get all your cars on the grid at one time, that just doesn't happen. To get 30 cars on the grid, even for a high profile event where owners are really motivated to be there, you probably need 45 cars on your books. For lower profile events, the numbers always diminish further. But I think HMC is headed in the right direction, and I'm pleased by what has been achieved in a very short space of time, from a set of rules in which, at the beginning, not one single car complied with.
To my simple mind, ignoring country of origin or engine size, there are effectively three broad groups of saloons into which just about every classic car slots.
1) Period pure run to a tight set of rules such as HMC or even Oldfart's pre 1961 group. Appendix/Schedule K etc. CoD's whatever. Even the older U2K cars although some might not like it, but they are the future classics!
2) Road going but mildly modified or even reasonably heavily modified, but still on DoT rated tyres and theoretically along the lines of what T & C should be. ERC, Alfa Trofeo, some BMWs, probably Japanese classics, MG Series.
3) Race saloons, be they historic or recreations, or merely classic race saloons of any age. This includes all the other Muscle car classes, Historic Sports sedans, Pre 65's, some open BMWs.
Quite where you'd slot BMW E30's I'm not too sure but theoretically, group 1 as they do run to a tight set of rules but they are not 100% in line with T & C either!
You can subdivide the above any way you like and equally, you should be able to mix and match any of those sub groups. Whether drivers wanted to mix with other groups or the age and performance of the various cars has nothing to do with it. This is merely a car classification comment.
The points above regarding handicaps is still one we stick to and no point in repeating why.
It is when you start to subdivide those basic groups that it fragments and the various sub groups have to decide at what point they are viable or have to combine.
Regardless of the support for HMC as a stand alone class, it does represent one essential section of what we are about.
Last edited by ERC; 03-27-2014 at 09:42 AM.
Steve- thanks for your extra comment-
quite economical on the basis of what you get in the car as to pricing out building one.
That is something that you can lose track of-
cost of building it.
cost of someone elses work already done.
Last edited by John McKechnie; 03-26-2014 at 10:45 PM.
Yeh Dale........don't get 'down'. We could all put the boot in, but that would achieve very little. We all need, as Nikita Khrushchev said....'to live in peaceful co-existence'.
Howard, your usual well thought out and sensible comments. Thanks.
The tyre thing shouldn't be a problem.......it already states in the regs that a dot rated tyre is mandatory. Unfortunately, there is very little in the way of a decent DRY tyre in a ten inch size. We did try Bernie Hines 'American Racer' tyres, but they are really a speedway tyre and not suitable for our conditions. We are not spoiled for choice as are most other sizes. The old CR65 is about it.....a wet race tyre which lasts about 2 minutes on a dry track. Could dig out some old C49's!!!!!!!!!
The South Island boys are a bit more upfront with this, and you are able to run race tyres IF the car was raced with them in the day......which ours was. A form was filled in with all the details, photos etc, and permission was granted.
BUT, as you pointed out, the stopping distance with a light car on race tyres, is vastly different to a large car on Dot tyres. [or a large car on any tyres for that matter]
However, I think you can say goodbye to the Mini in the U3L class running with the HMC boys at any future Festival, so you can all breath a sigh of relief, and bring those Muscle cars out again.
Dale,
The numbers for this weekend for HMC are probably consistent with he fact that so few of the HMC stalwarts supported the glamour event of the year. This (Legends) meeting is always poorly supported so - go figure.....
As a non-competitor I'm probably not qualified to talk shop but as I've been such a keen follower for the duration of HMC including it's birth, here goes....
Dale, you make a HUGE commitment to HMC and you have alway been incredibly realistic in your expectations of growth etc so I appreciate how you must feel at this unviable position.
My suggestion (and it may not be practical for a number of reasons) is you set up a competitor liaison person whose role it is to talk on a regular basis to all members of the group by email, skype, phone or in person. This role isn't to directly sort issues but purely to report issues that the various guys have going on. In some cases non-involvement is for personal or financial reasons but the person envisages being back in the short to medium term. In others the issues run deeper and a disillusionment or loss of interest has set in and the liaison person needs to be trusted to listen and not judge, is to be a messenger not a troubleshooter or defender of the realm.
It's bit like a customer feedback form - if you don't ask you often don't FULLY know what is going on in someone's life, finances and thinking. If you start to connect up the thoughts and feelings of individuals who make up the group you have a better chance of moving ahead smoothly - and planning events to cater for the needs of the group. None of this implies rule changes and COD issues as such. I believe that you can't please all the people all the time - especially in motor racing.
On a positive note I was talking to Dewi Jones yesterday about Aussie TransAm and in spite of the split that happened recently their recent Lakeside round attracted 18 competitors and they are projecting 22 or 23 for next month at Queensland Raceway. And the extra good news is their recent ATA meeting their was talk of sending 12 cars over! Now I'm sure that will dwindle in 10 months time but it looks like a rejuvenated TransAm class may result in maybe 8 cars coming over - time for the Kiwis to get their s#%* together I would say! Remember it was only 7 months ago that 8 Kiwi HMC cars went over and plundered their Lakeside event and all 8 of them finished the final race with only 8 Aussie cars still running. And Dale Mathers taking away the trophy for most successful and consistent driver!
I admit I'm worried a little but this is the time to get the email, skype, phone and boot leather going rounding up everyone with a compliant HMC car and finding out what they are doing, what they would like to see happen and very importantly - what meeting(s) are you going to support? The liaison role probably is better not being a competitor as petty jealousies and gripes often lurk under the surface preventing "full and frank disclosure".
Regards, "the Mini" I say it's just too bad. Angus is a really good guy and a very quick driver but as some feel in historics is prone to the "red mist" and overdriving. Howard's point about the braking zone is very good and because of this and the above comment I think illustrates why, sadly, this great and very historic Mini is an uncomfortable fit for the class in the hands of a top driver.
I hope some of this may be helpful.
Murray
Last edited by Murray Maunder; 03-27-2014 at 01:48 AM.
An outstanding suggestion Murray. In a class where there is no club meetings to openly discuss issues then we need an opportunity to raise concerns which are not best discussed in an open forum such as T.R.S. I personally have much more to add, and such open dialog can only be beneficial for all involved.
Good suggestion. We poll ALL drivers on any relevant issues (including those still on the circulation list who may not have paid up or are 'resting'). If you then accept that you'll only ever get a 30% return at best, at least drivers are consulted. You make your decisions accordingly.
Having said that Dale, you can trim and blacken your moustache and ignore the poll results anyway... It has been done before, even without a moustache.
Parnelli, please add your comments if you have more to add.
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