New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC

[Steve Holmes]

Perhaps its a timely sign that all the big bore / stroker boys need to think about going back to the 5000cc size as well, save some pennies in the process as well as the odd axle or two!

Its way too late for that Jac, the Hemi Cuda is a big block 465ci. To be fair, reliability has been pretty good among the HMC cars. The drivelines are pretty strong. Despite suggestions the top cars have 800hp, this is greatly exaggerated. The HMC rules stipulate a standard bonnet, which means the big high-rise manifolds won't fit. Other than the big block Cuda, which has just over 700hp, the top small block powered cars have about 640 - 650hp. Thats only a little more than Pete Geoghegan had in the Super Falcon, back in 1972. That car had 620hp.

The drivelines in the HMC cars use a lot of the same parts as the Central Muscle Cars have, and the top CMC cars, with their Nascar motors, are getting up close to 900hp, which even at that, are pretty reliable.

But I'm really impressed by that 5 litre Aussie Trans-Am car, and would love to see a few more people in HMC go this route. Also, the high-revving 5 litre cars sound fantastic! But it just goes to show how important it is to get a car handling and stopping well.

[Kiwiboss]

A few pics of our boys at the Muscle Car Masters.

[Kiwiboss]

These two Melbourne based Aussies ran with ATA for the first time, new to our group they were so impressed with our HMC "Cars are the Stars" attitude that they now want to come to NZ to race. HMC is now giving the Australian based muscle car racers somewhere to across the ditch to race, this is only just the start.

[ERC]

Looking ahead Dale, it might pay to touch base with Tony Quinn, as the chances are, they'll have the Aussie GT Series at HD November 2016 for the extended track reopening. Probably the most eagerly anticipated meeting since HD first opened in 2009 and the first McLaren Festival January 2010.

Getting the Aussies over for more than one class would be a real bonus. Much I suppose depends on who actually promotes/organises the meeting and let us just hope it is Classic friendly...

[Kiwiboss]

Looking ahead Dale, it might pay to touch base with Tony Quinn, as the chances are, they'll have the Aussie GT Series at HD November 2016 for the extended track reopening. Probably the most eagerly anticipated meeting since HD first opened in 2009 and the first McLaren Festival January 2010.

Getting the Aussies over for more than one class would be a real bonus. Much I suppose depends on who actually promotes/organises the meeting and let us just hope it is Classic friendly...

Classic friendly is the issue Ray, a great idea but this Quinn Aussie GT Series seems to be more about Tier one/modern type racing rather than anything Classic/Historic so not really sure that this is the direction I want to take HMC/HSC, but could still worth a look in the future maybe?

Dale M

[ERC]

Fair point Dale, but according to "T & C" (Thoroughbred & Classic), 'Thoroughbred' must surely include Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, Bentley, even Porsche, which is what the Aussie GT series has in spades? We shouldn't let the fact that our T & C rules totally ignores Thoroughbreds, stop participation at a meeting that could appeal to a far wider audience than Tier 1.

The suggestion was basically because shipping logistics might make it an attractive proposition for the Aussie Muscle cars to head this way.

[Kiwiboss]

Fair point Dale, but according to "T & C" (Thoroughbred & Classic), 'Thoroughbred' must surely include Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, Bentley, even Porsche, which is what the Aussie GT series has in spades? We shouldn't let the fact that our T & C rules totally ignores Thoroughbreds, stop participation at a meeting that could appeal to a far wider audience than Tier 1.

The suggestion was basically because shipping logistics might make it an attractive proposition for the Aussie Muscle cars to head this way.

Ray, can't say I've really watch the Aussie GT Series on TV much but I thought it was for the more modern newer looking cars? rather than anything under Appendix 6, Schedule K, T&C Group 2(12/77 saloons) group 1(12/77 sports cars) or Group 3(post 78 to 15 years old) regulations?

The Aussie guys I've mentioned above are racing similar muscle V8 type vehicles to our HMC cars and the keenest they have is that they can come to NZ and race in a similar group, should they desire to race with at another non classic/historic meeting/class that coincides around the same time is purely up to them.

Dale M

[Kiwiboss]

Its way too late for that Jac, the Hemi Cuda is a big block 465ci. To be fair, reliability has been pretty good among the HMC cars. The drivelines are pretty strong. Despite suggestions the top cars have 800hp, this is greatly exaggerated. The HMC rules stipulate a standard bonnet, which means the big high-rise manifolds won't fit. Other than the big block Cuda, which has just over 700hp, the top small block powered cars have about 640 - 650hp. Thats only a little more than Pete Geoghegan had in the Super Falcon, back in 1972. That car had 620hp.

The drivelines in the HMC cars use a lot of the same parts as the Central Muscle Cars have, and the top CMC cars, with their Nascar motors, are getting up close to 900hp, which even at that, are pretty reliable.

But I'm really impressed by that 5 litre Aussie Trans-Am car, and would love to see a few more people in HMC go this route. Also, the high-revving 5 litre cars sound fantastic! But it just goes to show how important it is to get a car handling and stopping well.

Correct Steve no change necessary, HMC rules are based around FIA group 2 & 5 and what was historically correct for saloons from 66 to 72 in Australia, NZ, USA and England and also using our own MSNZ Group 2(Saloons) Appendix 6, schedule K and T&C pre 12/77 rules, FIA regulations determine that for a vehicle to be a “Standard Series Production Manufacture” a 100 or more have to been built, and as the HMC class isn’t built around anyone’s particular car any engine big or small is allowed as per the manufacture, so choose your weapon of choice? generally every vehicle has its achilles heel.

This been my first broken axle i guess it was more a lack of preparation rather than the illusional horsepower been quoted here, after 11 years of racing I should have replaced them? hmm I now know better(Note to Dale: replace axles every 10 years). From day one when I built my mustang it has only made 560HP/495ft/lb, im on my 3rd rebuild and have had Marsh dyno it every time and it only swings about 7HP but more importantly I have never blown an engine, can’t afford that carry on been on a self-employed small business racers budget but what I have worked on is handling and braking for performance gain(something the Aussies are good at)!! With me strapped in the Boss its whopping 1615KG’s going down the track, Gimbletts Camaro is similar(as are others) and his car is 615HP, you see a 400CI SB chev with iron 23 degree heads under a standard production manufactures bonnet is going to struggle to make much more, there is a Jet Sprint class running a similar engine package except they have no bonnet to contend with hence poke the intake/carb/s up higher and the best they can get is around 660/670HP so 800HP is in “dream on land” unless you increase the engine size by going to a big block but then you carry more weight, the Achilles heel I talk about.

Australian Trans Ams rules are closely based around the actual American Trans Am rules from period where they were allowed to strip the cars out, remove door glass, headlights, bumpers, etc and this has allowed them to be much lighter car than a similar HMC vehicle, their 350 aluminium cylinder head pump gas engine restriction means they’re around the 540HP mark tops, light weight beats HP any day(EG: FVA Escort verse’s Mustang/Camaro, remember those days!) and both groups have made allowances for brakes and gearbox although these allowances still fit within period era component correctness. The yellow 5litre ATA mustang of Russell Wrights weights 1240KG so with even just 390HP at the rear wheels he was able to put it on pole, plus he is a long time experienced racer in Group Nc with great capability, and remember the Aussies have been racing on the “period correct bias ply 15” Hoosier” tyre for years and have perfected car set up. ATA mostly races out of Queensland under the AASA organisation, a breakaway from CAMS Australia, and CAMS doesn’t recognise ATA rules because like New Zealand, Trans Am wasn’t a class raced in either countries. So all the ATA race cars have to be re-logged booked as “Trans Am Sports Sedans” to race at CAMS events like the Muscle Car Masters, some may remember that when Moffat shipped his 69 Coca cola Trans Am Mustang to Australia CAMS made him refit the interior(and other parts) and this was way back in 1969. But what is important here is between HMC and ATA we have vehicles with similar performance levels, very close in visual looks and are on the same wheel/tyre package, so here we have two great and affordable big bore saloon car class’s that can come together from time to time and have a bit off Trans-Tasman FUN, that’s all we are about, something I believe lacking in today’s Classic and Historic saloon car motorsport, so there you have it and long may it continue.

[ERC]

Love it! JUST 390 at the wheels! Jeez, I get 95 at the rear wheels and guess what, some groups do have fun! It isn't lacking at all Dale. You must be looking in the wrong places...

[Jac Mac]

Since I suggested the look at going back to more 'in period' cu in numbers. Steves answer of ' Its way to late for that Jac'. I often wonder how many good racing categories have met their demise by that very phrase where series officials have felt they cannot revisit the rules to tone things down a bit. The 'OLD' NZV8 Ford 302w vs 305 Holden was a classic when the rules did NOT include a specification for the block deck height. Next thing blocks were being decked by amounts like ~0.130" and custom pistons/rings etc being made, all that added an extra $ 5 or 6k to the engine build for everyone that felt the need, only worked on the Ford by virtue of sufficient thread material. If they had only written a minimum deck height into the rule that money would have been better spent on a dry sump setup. That's the sort of stuff Im getting at. The Cuda is an exception you obviously choose to allow, but we never saw the likes of that car in NZ in period and your engine RPM rules cover that area. However Mustangs & Camaros- earlier versions never had the likes of 347 cu in or 4.125+ bore sizes. Just sayin, no skin off my nose, just tryin to look after the guy with low cash but savvy mechanical & handling skills to make his overall package better, NZ motorsport grids used to be full of those guys, not anymore.

[Steve Holmes]

Jac, New Zealand engine size rules in the first year of Group 5 in 1968 were 7 litres. MSNZ then reduced this to 5.5 litres, which remained the case through until 1971. From 1972, it increased to 6 litres.

In Australia, there was really no engine size cap and there were several big block 427 cars being raced. This was until 1972, when it was brought down to 6 litres.

NZ never had a 5 litre engine limit. Would doing so reduce engine build costs? Does it cost more to build a large low revving motor, or a small high revving motor?

Also, wen HMC was created, the only way it could ever get off the ground was to make it appeal to car owners who were already racing. Most already had 6 litre plus motors. It was tough enough getting them to switch to the smaller 15" diameter wheels. Telling them they would also have to build smaller motors would have killed the class before it even started.

[John McKechnie]

I for one, am very grateful for Dale and HMC providing me a class with clear rules so I can afford to build my cars at home, and maintain them at home.
If there was no Historic racing, both my XA Coupe and HK Monaro would have been scrapped long ago.

Nothing worse than owning a race car and no class to run it in.

Looking forward to running the old Cleveland 351 this weekend at the Ice Breaker- no tyre warmers there.........

[DewiAusTransAm]

Classic friendly is the issue Ray, a great idea but this Quinn Aussie GT Series seems to be more about Tier one/modern type racing rather than anything Classic/Historic so not really sure that this is the direction I want to take HMC/HSC, but could still worth a look in the future maybe?

Dale M

Funny that Dale, Tony Quinn was on our flight back from Sydney to Brisbane on Sunday night after the Muscle Car Masters, I believe he was returning from NZ. I mentioned we just came from Eastern Creek racing Trans-Am & had some Kiwis over here. Should also note that Quinn has already brought the TCM cars to Highlands, a week after this year's festival.

[Steve Holmes]

The yellow 5litre ATA mustang of Russell Wrights weights 1240KG so with even just 390HP at the rear wheels he was able to put it on pole, plus he is a long time experienced racer in Group Nc with great capability, and remember the Aussies have been racing on the “period correct bias ply 15” Hoosier” tyre for years and have perfected car set up.

Thats impressive they got that Mustang down to just 1,240kg Dale. I wrote the full history on the second 1968 Penske Camaro (owned for many years by Historic Trans-Am organiser Tom McIntyre) for the Muscle Car Digital Magazine I'm involved with, and with serious acid dipping of the Camaro bodyshell, all other body parts, and subframe, plus other lightweight items such as magnesium wheels, the Penske team got this car down to just on the minimum 1968 Trans-Am racing weight of 2,600 pounds, which is approx 1,180kg.

So 1,240kg is a pretty impressive effort.

[AMCO72]

How many muscle cars can we expect to see at HD for the Ice-breaker? The answer may depend on whether I am a spectator or not. The weather looks as though it might be OK.

[Kiwiboss]

Only 6 entered Gerald, absolutely pathetic considering we have more finished HMC cars than ever before, more HMC cars in the build than ever, more new guys coming on-board than ever and yet less and less are turning up!! Im not sure why this is but its very disappointing? Maybe some just wanta do car shows? Maybe some just wanta own them but not race? I really don’t understand? we have created a class based around sound common sense rules but still with quite liberal freedoms that apply equally to everyone, I’ve always promoted “Good for one Good for All” across the field! and we couldn’t promoted the class any better. Maybe its time for me to step aside as this seems to be what happens in most NZ class’s, someone starts it another takes it over and builds it further or maybe we just need another 20 years plus to get a 41 car grid like ERC? I’ll only be 75.

Maybe someone with the intelligence such as yourself Gerald or Ray can drive it further? I believe you are free after this season Ray? Doc John Elliott sort off has some “Historic” blood in him and I also like him, although not classic or historic he’s taken a group of misfits and turned it into New Zealands premier race series, might offer it to him as he clearly knows more than I do? I always said I’d give it 5 years but not quite going to make it by the looks, as for me I believe the same set of rules should always apply equally to everyone so that really leaves no class or event(other than the Festival) in this country for me to race my Mustang as a proper classic.

I was never one of those Kiwis that wanted to move to Australia but I have a lot of common interest in the way they organise Classic and Historic racing and apply the rules, may as well send my car back? I’ve already figured out they mainly race through the winter so that would give me the summer off. Anyway, im pretty sure a bunch of non-racers will have plenty of great ideas to give me, I don’t want ideas, I want effort, they say “Failure is the chance to begin again more intelligently” guess we’ll just have to do that?

PS: Your always welcome whether a spectator or not.

[John McKechnie]

Dale- I am entered, just put in wrong group- that makes 7

[ERC]

Disappointing Dale. I inherited 9 BMC 4 cylinder cars 20 years ago, down from a high of 36 the year before and it was obvious that

a) The series with the existing eligibility rules was probably unsustainable

b) There were a lot of cars that could fit if the rules changed.

At the end of season 1, I also realised that if the same people were keen to win at each event, then the vast majority weren't as keen to run, so it was changed to two handicaps only, giving everyone a fair chance. Needless to say, that seasons joint winner stomped off muttering that I had turned it into a lottery...

IMHO, giving everyone a fair chance has proved far more important than any other aspect and for six of the last 7 years we have had over 100 registered. BUT, at times, we too have suffered with a less than a 30% turnout. The reasons are many and varied, so as far as most of us are concerned, anything better than a 30% turnout is good, not withstanding that I have no time at all for six car grids.

If the numbers of pure (and I use that advisedly) Muscle Cars registered isn't enough for a stand alone grid, (and that seems to be the case) then from where I sit, the best logic is to create or combine with another class, that isn't currently supported. You don't have to back off on your own class rules as racing by classes has been a feature of motorsport since the Brookland's days.

I hate to say it, but the U3L class is hardly likely to attract many NEW cars as history shows that to date, every single car run so far has also raced in another class or can be accepted in an existing class.

The one group that has nowhere to race is a none CoD Classic race saloons class, whether they be genuine ex-classic race saloons or recent builds. Theoretically, we don't allow stripped out race cars, but we all know that many of them are pushing the rules a wee bit, but what is most important? The rules, or getting cars on the track?

You have opted for the former, we have opted for the latter, but our catchment of suitable cars is potentially massive. HMC is comparatively small in comparison, so why are you so surprised?

I hate to say it but much as I have supported the HMC committee's efforts and despite the obvious backing of MSNZ/CoD and Steve's excellent journalism and publicity, I am one who right from the outset, doubted you'd ever fill a grid. I think that at one time, there were about three Muscle Car groups, so your true catchment group was even smaller. It is a numbers game first and foremost.

I am sure the members you have with compliant cars are more than happy with the rules, but ask them WHY they are not actually out racing. A simple email - but you'll be lucky to get better than a 30% response!

I'm handing over to Chris at the end of the season because after 20 years, I felt it was time for someone else to have a go. I have the time and the enthusiasm, but a break from my dictatorial ways may well be good for the series and I'll still be there to offer Chris any support I can.

If you hang your hat totally on T & C and CoD's, then you expose the frailties of that system. I recently read a piece in TACCOC's 'Bespoke' magazine, presumably penned by John Holmes. Part of his summary was - and I quote it word for word:

One solution would be to tidy up the conflicts in Schedule K to move it line with Appendix K, throw away T & C entirely and give everyone a level playing field from which to start work.

When was that written? Autumn 2009...

[AMCO72]

Two very interesting posts there......1436 and 1438. Wouldnt it be great if all the potential racers got off their arse and put pen to paper, with a piece on here telling us what they would like to see happen with these classes. I am not holding my breath that that will happen.........havent got time.....'Yeh Right'.

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- I have been in the car restoration business for 40 plus years. In that time I have come across people who considered themselves to be Methusela -life span of 969 years. Plenty of time to get all projects done. There was GC who had 86 Packards-all were going to be completed, and KS who spent 27 years restoring his 1930 Dodge and refused to take the car out on the road till he was able to replicate the Carless Day sticker .
I would also venture to say that while men own the cars the cars will sit in garages until for one important reason it is to be moved. Either to the track or someone elses workshop.
There is only one reason- DESIRE.
Lack of this sense of direction in life sees not only these cars sit, but also leaving telling other people what should be done before they come out again.
Heaven would be a very crowded place if you could take all your toys with you.
Those who have a the desire to race their cars this weekend will be at the Ice Breaker as first class spectators- behind the wheel.