Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[Racer Rog]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit. But you are correct about Historic racing, the trick will be to keep it "as it was, so it shall be" a number of classes have taken steps to keep it this way, and this is where I see the CoD, and HTP systems coming to the fore, and as you know the Historic Commission have taken time and steps along these lines, and are developing these systems and helping them evolve to ensure things "stay the same"
Roger

[RogerH]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit.
Roger

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

[Dave Silcock]

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

[Dave Silcock]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

Further to this Rog why have you not destroyed these perfidious wheels in case your childern should put them on your Lola after you have gone and corrupt the purity of the car for future generations?

[Racer Rog]

I'm told they are being made into coffee tables
Roger

[RogerH]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

[Dave Silcock]

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

[RogerH]

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.

Roger, that's exactly the point I was making, and having just put the rule book down there is no mention of period variations, neither does it come [T&C that is] under Schedule K. It is a stand alone set of regulations. If you were to rely on Schedule K saloon cars I doubt that anyone could make up a grid of vehicles of any age. What I am against is using any technology or materials that were not available at the time.Eg carbon fiber or electronic injection. Some on here object to 6 pot calipers well the first Dunlop disc brakes had 6 pistons and 6 little brake pads on each one, so on needs to be careful when assuming something is new technology.