Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[jim short]

Amco look I can not spend so much time on here as you know I have a very busy life to lead.reread and you will note I said the tv was great and the panning of the camera {that means moving about}picked up some cattle ,,,the End. starts shortly and with luck there will be some little ones...now I didnt rubish the racing but have to wonder how many champions did drake mention 27>>I beleive so been cleened up by some 18yr, old no FUN I bet another 2 bob there was no FUN now we must not debate this modern activity on here

[AMCO72]

Yes, some wet-behind-the-ears kid........ Jim you gotta remember......every dog has his day....Woof woof!!!
I thought you was thinking of 'pan-frying' the cattle-beast, when you talked about 'panning'.
As a refined GENT, I am surprised at your busy work-load....but not too busy to ring me and chew my ear. Never mind I will probably do what Dave suggests and get a WOF for the Mini, then I can come down and have a coffee with you.....you should be good at making coffee, although somehow I cant picture you making flat-whites!!!!

[Bruce302]

Bruce just exactly what point are you trying to make here? are you advocating us adopting the system you seem to admire from the US? That we actually fix the start and finishing positions. Who would want to participate our watch such a farce, unless it is just a lot millionaires showing how much money they have got.

I'm not advocating anything, just pointing out that there are as many styles of historic racing as there are clubs etc. No one is forced to take part in anything that doesn't suit their preference. Right now in NZ there is something for everyone.
It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

And Bruce, I would hate to see the NZ historic and Classic scene get to some of the lenghts that they do in the States, but what you have described is not that common thank god, and they do have have some good Historic racing, in the various groups SCCA, VERA , and a few others, and not all are run by Steve Earl!!
Roger
Indeed Roger, but don't forget that thanks to some of those enthusiastic people, and not all are millionaires, some very nice cars have been saved and preserved. They do not want then damaged or destroyed.
Think of the historic tin tops we do not have competing. The Coppins Camaro or Firebird, Fahey's Mustangs, PDL II, Red Dawson's Mustang, Camaro or Monza (admittedly it is in Aust) The Sidchrome Mustang, and the multitude of smaller but equally important cars. Many of these cars have parts that cannot be bought to replace any damaged in racing incidents. I certainly don't have the money to have new parts fabricated either.

By all means build new cars, make them as fast as you like. My personal opinion is that an historic race car is one with period history, prepared as it was in the day. No one likes to see them damaged or lost, so consequently they get pampered a little. Is there anything wrong with that ?

Bruce.

[jim short]

Strange just told Dave you would never wof the mini plus you forget I was a coffee cafe owner in my endevor to get Steph to UK.yes wet kid was kicked out yrs back!!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards.

Trevor.

I tend to be a pragmatic sort of guy and it is apparent that this thread, specifically headed as above, is achieving very little as nothing has become defined. The intent of my post was hopefully to ensure that something specific and objective is recorded.

At this point the finishing order appears to be as follows, i.e. subject to further comment which hopefully will follow and will be suitably succinct.

RogerH --- (1)
nzeder --- (1)
jim short --- Must presume --- (1)
Dave Silcock --- Must presume --- (1)
Sreve Holmes --- Must presume --- (1)

AMCO72 --- Must presume --- (2)
Racer Rog --- Must presume --- (2)
Bruce302 --- Must presume --- (2)

Many forums provide facilities for arranging a poll, but I can not find anything here. Please can we have more exact information recorded, so that the true true situation can be accurately established and confirmed. As a result I will then be able to progressively update the figures.

It would appear that there are some who do not wish to engage in a motor race as such and would be happy with an organised group run, around a racing circuit. Surely those within this category must fall outside a forum depicting motor racing, that is other than as interested commentators.

Non competitive events could be organised clear of the jurisdiction of MSNZ, on an economical basis with few hassles. There is evidence existing showing that combining such an event with a car show, could very well attract adequate paying spectators and prove a viable proposition.

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss, to understand just what you want, Classic and Historic competitors do race, and we don't go with that modern form of racing that says "rubbing is racing" we tend to have more respect for our cars and fellow competitors, in as far as to where I come from , I guess I would be throwing my hand in with Roger Herrick on this, we do agree on a lot of things, but not all, most of us want to enjoy our form of racing, and I don't think anyone of us will be getting the call from a F1 team, and I would say that most want to put the car on the trailer at the end of a successful meeting in one piece, in as far as non competitive events, haven't been to one yet, and I have been around motor sport for about 45 years, not as long as some here, I guess I will be un competitive when they nail the lid on the box before they burn me up. As far as polls go, never trusted them, you can get any answer you like, depending on how you frame the questions, and can turn black into white. One of the big problems with any form of racing these days and not only motor sport, is that there are no simple rules, everything has to be Lawyer proof, and in motor sport, the only game in town as far as that goes is MSNZ, and even then they don't get it right all of the time, but they have the most robust systems and training of any other motoring organization, so to go back to a simpler way, you will need a direct line to the Dr and the Tardus.
Roger

[jim short]

I doubt that I will race again but never say never .have sugested to the Toyota Dealer that to have young Martin s grand father in there 2nd car could be good publicity !!So no more wine or rum dont drink much of that stuff anyway ,salards yogut ect running upto 200mtrs a day starting to look sharp

[RogerH]

I also don't quite know where Trevor's poll will get us but I'm pretty sure most historic competitors do race within the constraints that Roger E (Racer Rog) mentioned. We have to remember that our cars are old and have a value (some more than others), they often have irreplaceable components that you can't pick up at Repco. Additionally, they are inherently unsafe with no real crumple zones, built in side protection and in many cases roll protection. Taking all this into account I think the cars are generally raced hard with drivers understanding that you need to drive within limits and when these limits are breached I have seen some pretty heavy "talk" to the offending driver.
Getting on to the two options Trevor put forward - at least with historic/classic saloons there are opportunities for both categories. The racers can participate in the T&C type races and for those who just want to drive at speed on a circuit without getting involved in the "cut and thrust" there are series like the very popular (at least in Auckland) Classic Trials. Often new historic racers start out in Classic Trials and move onto T&C racing but others find the remaining in Classic Trials gives them enough fun. As long as you are happy and having fun then things are OK.

[AMCO72]

Jim, is a bit late for the salads and yoghurt. You should have thought about that all those years ago when you were crashing the gears on the International. Pies, sausage rolls, and bottles of Coke are definately not good for truck drivers. You have let yourself go my friend, and I'm afraid there is no return. As for running 200ms each day, well I ask you. You'll be having two knee replacements like me before long. But hey, you're a Bike Man. There is probably a good machine in the back shed left over from the bike shop, you know the one you reconditioned for Heke and he didn't pick it up. Bikes are much easier on the body, and with good tyre pressure should be able to support you! Would recommend a change of saddle though as I cant see you in bike-pants. Instead of me getting a WOF for the Mini, you could cycle up here and show me how to make a good cup of coffee.

[Dave Silcock]

Trevor, I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss, to understand just what you want, Classic and Historic competitors do race, and we don't go with that modern form of racing that says "rubbing is racing" we tend to have more respect for our cars and fellow competitors, in as far as to where I come from , I guess I would be throwing my hand in with Roger Herrick on this, we do agree on a lot of things, but not all, most of us want to enjoy our form of racing, and I don't think anyone of us will be getting the call from a F1 team, and I would say that most want to put the car on the trailer at the end of a successful meeting in one piece, in as far as non competitive events, haven't been to one yet, and I have been around motor sport for about 45 years, not as long as some here, I guess I will be un competitive when they nail the lid on the box before they burn me up. As far as polls go, never trusted them, you can get any answer you like, depending on how you frame the questions, and can turn black into white. One of the big problems with any form of racing these days and not only motor sport, is that there are no simple rules, everything has to be Lawyer proof, and in motor sport, the only game in town as far as that goes is MSNZ, and even then they don't get it right all of the time, but they have the most robust systems and training of any other motoring organization, so to go back to a simpler way, you will need a direct line to the Dr and the Tardus.
Roger

I have been giving this matter a lot of thought and in Paul on the road to Damacus moment have come with the perfect solution for these enlightened times we live in. I propose a two pronged course of action that will cause a paradigm shift in the way we interact with the community at large. All that will be required is a transponder and a suitable car to fit it to. Without any input from MSNZ, turn up at any race track in NZ on a test day and proceed to do as many laps as you are happy with. You will be able to wear the $1000 helmet you bought 10 years ago and have only worn twice, any roll cage you may or may not have, and any old seat belt as long as you have one. You can, already I'm sure, see the beautiful simplicity of this. Amco can come in after 3 laps because he is not enjoying himself and people like Jim can go round for as long as they like. With what ever electronic devise you have about your person you can instantly down load your times from My Laps. A decision can then be made at grass roots level and across the board as to wether further lappery is called for. At the end of the month a person skilled in matters of computing will collate this data from around the country and the winner will be posted on this very forum. This will be useful as the winner will not have to practise false modesty in front of his or her adoring fans. Like wise those who have a surfeit of time units, formerly known as slow, can retire to the bog to have a weep in the privacy of their own surrounded by the support of their loved ones. Those of you with genuine Historic cars won't have to worry about the dastardly new cars in old bodies. with the $10000 paint job lurking in the corners just so they can run into you There are spin offs as well, less fuel used both by the participants and as there are no spectators, none used to get to the track. I can see were the participant, competitor is so yesterday, who would normally need a bit of incentive, such as trying to catch, or even in some extremely immature cases, attempt to pass the car in front, would be at a disadvantage, but it is time these types were weeded out in any case.

[screwdriver]

Ironically Dave, it was only a few years ago that I proposed to run my car only at track days for the very reasons you state. The dated seat belt issue particularly, then the need for an MSNZ card (annual fee to be paid to MSNZ of course) if you had any rollover protection that intruded into the passenger compartment, or had full harness belts, was enough to put off anyone with a classic car in original condition who wanted to fit decent belts and a rudimentary roll protection without wrecking the originality of the car.

Taking the car off the road and buying a trailer and the attendant problems that entails, was the preferred and cheaper solution, than paying a rego fee for a car used for just 200 road Kms a year, (plus conforming to the farcical authority card system).

If you run a classic standard/slow/road car, you are not going to be working on it weekends, trying to extract a couple more HP as the car is NOT a race car. Your performance is relatively fixed, so you are on the track for one reason only. To drive it safely at a speed that would be considered illegal on the public road. Whether that is in a Classic Trial or a race series is merely a matter of choice unless you are too fast for the trials, which sensibly, have a (lap) speed limit.

[jim short]

Sorry about the delay Dave so many big words,I think you are onto something big here ,but listening to grand kids a play station can be set up without to much trouble, they come with a steering wheel ,or so they say and using a skite camera there is no end to the FUN we can have!!

[Dave Silcock]

I have just seen on reveiewing the above a serious flaw in my thinking. A switched on travel agent may wish to catch on to this new phenomeon and advertise an all complete tour of all the tracks in NZ in 10 weeks ,join and leave as you wish, all transport and video shots of you in action included. This may, and probably will, lead to a sense of comaraderie amongst the participants which undoubtably will lead to an excess of alcohol consumtion in the evenings with the end result that an out break of boastful exaggerated claims will ensue, previously known as lying , may break out, acommpanied by a general ribbing of the time unit challenged, formerly known as taking the piss. We at Personal Contest Racing, soon to be known as PC Racing will place a capitation levy on said companies to restrict this activity and fund our on going expenses to prevent any out break of the previous ridiculous situation where participants actually engaged in the archaic practise of pitting themselves in real time against others.

[AMCO72]

Dave, words fail me. What an amazing piece of writing. I didn't know you had it in you. I have read both pieces a dozen times just to get my head around the beautiful prose. Even included a bit of Biblical history to satisfy the Christians amongst us.
But.......'Many a true word spoken in jest'..... Your proposal has great merit, especially to old fuddy-duddies like me who dont enjoy 'motoracing' in the conventional sense. Heck, why didn't I think of that. Here am I chastising myself for not 'enjoying' racing, when everyone else is having so much fun it's nauseating, and the answer was staring me in the face. You know you would have made a great preacher, and if I didn't know better I would have said that you had a Christian upbringing.
Excuse me, but I just have to go and read it all again.

[Dave Silcock]

Gerald, clever of you to notice the Christian aspect of my latsest post, i was goin to say I had had a Paulian experience, but I thought it would be beyond the philistines on this site. I was brought up in a strict Baptist family which was several generations old and very, dancing will lead to vertical sex sort of stuff. I am appalled my Monty Pythonesque dissertations may be taken seriously! What have I done !

[markec]

He may have been doing some moonlighting in preparation for that outburst of"looking outside of the square" composing, Gerald.He's getting a bit soft, went home early today, either a bit cold or on a promise.

[Dave Silcock]

Mark, you could have said its been snowing all bloody day down here, but I am still astounded anybody wuold take these rantings seriously.

[Russ Noble]

There will always be those with differing views on how the grids and format of historic should be achieved,those with the faster cars seem to resent being put at the back of the grid or placed half a lap or so down. These days it is important to get bums on the seats at motorsport events,as the cost continue to climb it is becoming much more difficult for the young enthusiast to participate at anything other than club events, and that is getting too costly as well. So to create a spectacle for those who prefer to watch rather than participate, the racing needs to be entertaining.
This thread has been started to promote constructive comment.

Entertaining racing has got to be reverse grids. Seeing the faster cars/drivers work their way through from the back provides a much greater spectacle than the often processional 'racing' that tends to result from 'normal' grids.

If competitors leave 'racing room' , and strict penalties are applied to those that don't, there should be no problem. The slower cars need to be aware of faster cars behind them, and the faster cars need to recognise that they may not have been seen and that the slower car in front may well be going to take it's normal apex.

However, at some meetings, in the mix we have at least four variables.
We have original cars.
We have non original cars.
We have drivers that want to race, or challenge their own lap times/targets etc.
We have drivers that prefer more to parade their cars.

None of these four are mutually exclusive.

With regard to the drvers, if everyone leaves 'racing room' it can't be that hard to keep the cars apart. Admittedly there is always the possibility of the unforseen, but that's just a function of being on track. You can always get caught up in someone elses disaster, mechanical failure or whatever.

With regard to the cars, not everybody has the desire or funds to own a genuine car of a type they would like, so they build their replicas etc. Whilst it would be nice to keep originals in a class of their own, the reality at some meetings is that the replicas/look-a-likes are needed to pad out the grids. Much better for the spectators. And the drivers, I would think.

By and large spectators at classic/historic events, although they may have an appreciation of the genuine historic cars, care little whether the BDA Escort monstering a 289 Mustang are originals, dead nuts replicas or merely look-a-likes. The distinction is probably more appreciated by drivers and crews who have a more intimate knowledge of the various cars.

Either way, I see no reason why all these variables cannot be accomodated and I think reverse type grids should be the norm to provide entertaining and FUN classic racing. If some fast guys resent being put at the back of the grid, well tough, they can always get a slow car and be off the front!

[AMCO72]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.

[Oldfart]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.

Whether Russ is currently racing a classic, in my opinion does not matter. He is one of the NAMES from the "good old days"