Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[rf84]

I endorse what Racer Rog says-that given a choice, people will line up where they feel most comfortable. HRSCC usually do this at their December Taupo meeting and from my experiece it works very well. Even the Historic Formula Fords that have some fiercely competitive drivers have used it successfully. We've all heard the expression "When the flag drps the bullshit stops". With this system, if someone puts himself on pole, there are heaps of drivers who will try and knock him off his perch. At the end of the race you will find out how accurate people's opinion of their ability really was.

[Dave Silcock]

I can now see that after a period of almost 20 years after I last had a competion licence I have drifted into the wrong sport and the wrong forum. I blame Jim for this but I find myself continually at odds with what you lot are saying. Russ you say you are shocked to see people racing cars with twice the power they had in the day and accuse those who do so as having an excess of money. I put it to you the opposite is the case, those with money hate people like me and Bob and Jamie because we can do things they can't and will do anything to stop us. I am not suprised to find Amco does not enjoy his Mini, I'd be lucky to do a lap in a car like that at my age, solid mounted motor, nasty twitchy steering and all the rest. What he needs is a carriage with a little more decorum. For my self cars have always been the stars , why else why would I race the cars I have, with the exception of the Escort and that was not my decision,I have raced what I thought would be amusing. Or more to the point to prove some theory of tuning. Which is what the Blue car is all about. I have always been a student of air flow and power out put, particually of slow reving engines.Prompted by Phil Irvings statement that achiveing 100bhp /liter was very difficcult under 8000 rpm and that the Manx Norton was at the time the finest air pump known to man kind I decided to see if this was possibile with a Jaguar. The car is only a vehicle to test this and if this upsets the people that have to pay to have this sort of work done then tough titty

[jim short]

Dave you are only picking on me because I am smaller and went around Champion in top gear,,40yrs this month you gave my {mustnot mention Jags} Primrose car a tune up and you had the cheek to charge $17 then in the dark and heavy rain we went down Ripon cres..to test it not sure what revs you used as my eyes were not open I do remember the coments gee theese aquajets are great!!!Now there is a class you are more than welcome to take part in and the best ever class to line up ,you will not win but that never worried you,I remember asking yrs. ago why dont you run a better car ?Because I wish to run a J...u..r but this class has the best cars regardless of size or power, and never have I been so shure that the blue J..;;/ would be national headlines,, I may have to prize the studant out to travel down to inspect the J.. if hes still a friend

[Racer Rog]

The only meeting that we do run grids and positions allocated to vehicle is the ENZED Classic meeting, where after saving their pennies every year, the drivers can afford to hire a transponder, it also gives the illusion that they maybe big time racers, so who are we to spoil their dream!!, as for the Shell Sport Cars, is yours ready? and I don't see a list yet, as you know, you get the numbers and we will save a place for them, until then, its the small saloons for you!!
Roger

So Roger you are saying that the number that the grid marsahals stick on our steering wheel when we are on the dummy grid means nothing and we are free to line up where ever we want to and that we don't need to hire the transponders for he meeting.

Just wait until the next meeting when all the Shellsport cars running in the small class want to be on pole.

[nzeder]

When I first got involved with a car club in mid 90's the club held a 2 day weekend at Pukekohe. Racing grids were based solely on lap time. I even made an application to help produce grids based on lap times throughout the day. This meant if you got faster during the day you could get pushed up to a faster grid.

Ok sure these meetings were not for point based on a series. I was only in my early 20's and joined this car club as I was interested in the marque/model while I saved for one of the cars in question (20 years later, 7 of these cars have passed or stayed in my garage). I recall talking to competitors on the dummy grids of these meeting, fun is what they were all having.

The time based grids were 100% reverse grids. Grid size was selected by laptime spreed but always targeted at 20 to 25 cars and it did not matter what marques/model, only open wheelers/historics had their own time based grids. Starts were also handicapped with the goal of getting the grid to cross the finish line within the field laptime differential. E.G. if the laptime between the fastest car and slowest car was 5 seconds the handicapping was set so most of the grid of 20 would pass the start finish line within 5 seconds of each other. It may have been fun for the competitors but it was nuts in the timing bus with just a single pc managing the timing, it was bit manual writing race numbers down as someone called them out as the speed past.

The club has not held a race meeting for many years now, sad but as members moved on or like me started families and moved OS I guess these thing happen.

Again my impressions on these meeting held by The Datsun Z Club in the 90's was FUN, competitors having FUN racing different makes/models held under the T&C rules of the day, based solely on laptimes. ( It was not fun in the timing bus, but we knew the harder it was for us the closer the racing/finish was)

Regards
Mike

[AMCO72]

Dave, what did you have in mind for me, as you say, 'a carriage with more decorum'. Surely not a Jaguar!!!! I actually like driving the Mini, but not on the race track. As is usual, I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears. I think the 'law' would take a dim view of my activities if they spotted me......'no lights Sir'......'No officer, it's daylight and I can see, even without my glasses!!!! I seem to be doing these anti-social things less and less these days. Actually the car is probably in better condition than some of the rubbish I see out there.....mostly of the turbo-charged Subaru variety, with the driver sittting on the floor. I'm sure I would get fined slightly more than the 13/6 I got stung for on the Leeston run!!!
So it seems from all your comments that it is me that is out of step here, and that the rest of you are having a hilarious time racing with your mates. Well bully for you. But I hope you are not trying to WIN, because that's what it sounds like to me, and that is NOT the spirit of Classic racing.
Attended the HD round of the Super-tourers yesterday, and the Guy at the back was definately NOT having FUN......and I got that straight from the horses mouth!!!!!!!

[Racer Rog]

AMCO72, they are in a different sand pit, and I'm unsure as to just what will happen between the two top classes, BNTV8's or Super Tourers, I can't see both surviving, given that sponsors tins maybe a bit on the light side at this point in time, and would appear that worse is to come, and from what I can gather, the only winners will be the Lawyers, so in saying that, it is good news for those that race in Historic and Classic classes, as some of those people will race their own cars here, and when you race your car, you are very aware of what it costs!!
Roger

[Oldfart]

I have just had a call from my son in the UK who yesterday went to the endurance race at Silverstone with his mates.
There was a Lamborghini only couple of races, which he said was a total snore. Very fast exciting cars, but no variety. The main race was unbelievable, in his words. McLaren F1, BMWs, Audi R8, Porsches, Ferraris, etc etc. This, he said was what he wanted to see, heaps of variation, different cars stron in various ways, PROPER pitstops, and apparently those who went all saying much the same. 25 pounds for the day, open pitlane when races were not running, free access to the grandstands which were open(some were closed, but not the ones in good spots) and a great day out, except it was cold and damp.
Now if this is what a group of 20 something year olds want to see???????

[RogerH]

I think there has been a gradual change happening in NZ motor sport over the last few years and there are probably many factors at play. The so called "Tier 1" which is meant to represent the pinnacle of NZ motor sport according to MSNZ has suffered under the poor management, the impact of strained economic times and the defection of most of the "star" drivers and sponsors to the SuperTourer series. I agree with Racer Rog that only one of these top series will survive and that there is worse to come with the litigation commenced by the old series people that will unfortunately develop into involving MSNZ and as a result the clubs and then onto competitors.
All of this will just mean that there will be an intensification of the move towards historic and classic racing where things are less complicated and racing is more for enjoyment rather than the hassles and uncertainty of the "premier" classes. There will always be a premier component but it needs lots of sorting out and there is more blood to be spilt.
In the historic series that we run (Formula Junior), we have done away with championships and points. There is nothing to race for at the end of the season so this tends to curtail the demon "at all costs" racing and the tricky little modifications that are not really allowed under the operative regulations. Racing is purely for the fun of having a good dice and the camaraderie of mixing with like minded people - it doesn't matter if your dice is for 1st or 9th place. As a result of this approach we are having increased grids with more cars coming into the country. A number of the newer drivers are from more competitive racing backgrounds but they seem to enjoy the more relaxed format provided by historic racing. The same things seems to be happening overseas with relatively diminishing "premier" grids and increasing historic grids.

[Racer Rog]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit. But you are correct about Historic racing, the trick will be to keep it "as it was, so it shall be" a number of classes have taken steps to keep it this way, and this is where I see the CoD, and HTP systems coming to the fore, and as you know the Historic Commission have taken time and steps along these lines, and are developing these systems and helping them evolve to ensure things "stay the same"
Roger

[RogerH]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit.
Roger

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

[Dave Silcock]

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

[jim short]

Dave calm down now you can understand why taccoc are what they are ,just try to see the fun they create ,Jammie I am still working on the inkplot but to have the two of you in one day burn my ears!!! to much laughter can be bad you know

[Dave Silcock]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

Further to this Rog why have you not destroyed these perfidious wheels in case your childern should put them on your Lola after you have gone and corrupt the purity of the car for future generations?

[Racer Rog]

I'm told they are being made into coffee tables
Roger

[Steve Holmes]

Interesting thread! What I find a bit surprising is that so much of the content within this thread is on the subject of finding ways in which as many people as possible in a given race have a shot at winning the race. And yet, its always been my personal opinion that historic racing is about the cars, not the people who drive them, unless those people are as historically significant as the cars themselves.

To me, the emphasis of modern motorsport, as opposed to historic motorsport, is about winning races and championships. This is much of the reason for so many modern day championships becoming either one-make racing, or so tightly controlled that despite the participation of multiple brands, all the cars are effectively equal in performance, which provides a more equal platform for teams and drivers to demonstrate their skills. The essence and attraction of modern motorsport is the challenge of pitting driver against driver, team against team. But it seems there are a lot of people who get into historic motorsport with the mind-set of someone who is racing in modern motorsport. That’s what I find slightly curious.

To my mind, and maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but historic racing is about old cars, and celebrating history. Whether the cars have a competition history, or they're newly built for historic racing, I've always felt the emphasis should be on the cars themselves, and not who wins. I mean, seriously, does anyone really think Ferrari are looking to find their Felipe Massa replacement at a historic racing event? What do you get if you win in historic racing? Is your achievement greater than the guy who finishes 9th? Are you a better driver than those you're racing against if you win? Where will this great, apparently, un-tapped talent lead to once you begin winning races in historic events?

I do agree that there is a need for pulling together grids of cars that do share a relatively level degree of performance, but I think its just as important to formulate grids that look like they did at a certain period in history, with cars racing cars they would have raced against when new. With historic racing saloons in particular, this is achieved through much of the regulations that are in place. The NZ Group T&C rules are, in my opinion, very good. In Australia, the CAMS Appendix J (Group Na), plus Group Nb and Nc are also very good. They do tend to favour certain cars, being largely production based, but that’s just how motor racing is, and its always been that way, and to be fair, the performance variances are not huge when all the cars are built to a specific set of historic regulations. I feel there should be more importance placed on making sure everyone in the field has other people to race against. What I don’t like is seeing a car that is much slower than the rest of the field, I just wonder if that person is having any fun, driving around on their own. But the only occasions I've seen this happen are when the grids are too loosely regulated, where there is a huge performance gap between the cars, where a relatively modern Sports Sedan or GT car is pitted against a 50 year old production based car.

If you race an interesting car, people in the grandstands will notice you and follow your progress, regardless of whether you win or finish 20^th. And they’ll beat a path to your pit bay between races too, because that’s what historic racing is about, the cars.

I’ve recently been quietly collecting parts to build an HQ Monaro coupe for the new NZ Historic Muscle Cars class. It’ll take me a long time to build the car, because I have no money. I won’t have the most powerful motor, or the best gear. And to be honest, the HQ is a pretty big heavy car. I could take the same running gear and fit it into a Chevy Monza. The Monza is smaller, lighter, more nimble, and vastly more aerodynamically superior. The Monza would have me running much closer to the front of the field. But I don’t want a Monza, I want a Monaro. I’ve loved them since as a kid I first saw a photo of Bob Janes example. I really just want a car that’s fun to drive, enjoyable to own, enjoyable to polish between races, and that, in my opinion, looks good. And I want a car that others will enjoy seeing raced.

To me, that’s what historic racing is all about, going out and having fun in a car I’ve always loved. I don’t really care how far down the grid I am, and I know I won’t be at the front, and to be honest, I don’t really care. In fact, if I am at the front, the pressure to win will probably remove the fun factor for me anyway. As long as there is someone down at the back of the grid for me to do skids with, that’s all I really want. I don’t have the budget to go out and blow everyones doors off, but I can put my energy into other areas, like making the car look as good as it possibly can. I have enough pressures and stress in other areas of my life without making my motorsport stressful as well.

Hey, maybe I'm full of crap. Maybe I’ll get this thing to the track, do a few races at the back of the field and my competitive nature will kick in, and I’ll want to move forward, but at this stage, that’s not my motivation for doing this.

Lets face it, if everyone wants to win, then only one guy is going to be happy at the end of the race.

[nzeder]

Steve,

I agree with what you have posted. I love muscle cars and race cars from the 70's ,I guess as that is the era I grew up in as a young boy. I have never owned a V8 powered anything but love a good inline 6. I love the Nissan/Datsun Z cars as they were very different to most cars coming out of Japan in the late 60's early 70's. I too don't have a lot of $$ and it has taken me 15 years so far to rebuild one zed (and it is still a body shell and lots of parts). I have raced 2 other 240z over the years and I am looking forward to getting my new project going (leaving the road car for another 15+ years ) I know I will not win and I don't think I will every have enough talent to do so - therefore I am much like you - having my car out there showing it for what it is and just having fun driving the car as it was designed to do - race.

I think we are lucky here in NZ to have our T&C rules for period modified cars (like you say be they fresh built or with history) and Schedule K for Standard Series Production Cars or "the car" as raced in period - with the period mods still in place. As I read the appendix 6 of the manual Schedule K is not for "replica cars" freshly built to be an exact replica of a period race car - cars built like that are either T&C or CR.

As you have pointed out if I wanted to win a race I would look at class/series that is running see what car is required to win within the rules and build a car, or just purchase a winning car, and run that to win the class. However like most of us this is not what we do - we select the car we want to race in classic or historic grids as we have a connection/fascination with the marque/model in question. We do it because we love to and we love the cars we do it in. I for one want clean and safe grids so my car stays in the same shape it starts - if I wanted a bent car I would not race a classic that takes time to find parts (if still available) or lots of $$ as these parts become rare as the years roll by.

[Trevor Sheffield]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards.

Trevor.

[RogerH]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

[RogerH]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards.

Trevor.

Competing in a "race" or having a "race" doesn't necessarily mean that if you didn't win then you haven't competed or raced. You can have a great race and come in 9th - you can even have a great satisfying race and come last (if you had a cut and thrust competition with the car that came second to last).
I run my front engined car with drum brakes against rear engined cars with disc brakes - I have minimal chance of winning due to the inherent characteristics of the car but I often have fantastic races with cars similar to mine and we may end up something like 4th or 5th. I certainly don't think I'm just showing off the car or pretending to race - so I'm going with your proposition (1).