ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[rogered]

After reading this lot, most , it seems, have missed the point.
From what i see, most everybody is running " in the spirit of what's required" and all seem to be having fun, And they always have full grids with a full assortment of cars all doing their own thing. Seams to me ERC know "the answer to the secret" that most of the other 51 race classes and promoters are constantly searching for..

For those who wish firm, strictly enforced rules, there are plenty of classes catering for that. (There are still plenty of spaces to fill in NZ supertourer)

[ERC]

At last, someone outside the series understands!

Thanks Rogerd - though to be fair, we haven't had too many two full grids recently, but we have had two half grids on a regular basis. We try to have an "Include" structure not an "Exclude" and therein lies the basic difference.

[nzeder]

And don't forget the big part of the ERC group is the handicap setup. It is the leveler that

1. Makes for great racing to watch.
2. Put big smiles on the competitors dials.
3. Allows for cars and drivers of different levels of performance to compete in the same race.

And that system and the way Ray and his merry little helpers set these handicaps make the series a winner.

Years ago when the Datsun Z club use to hold a race meeting not the driving training/track days it does these days. We did time based grids with handicaps and it was FUN. It was hard work in those days with stop watches for timing in the old bus but the smile on everyones face was worth the stress in the timing bus.

The point handicaps and time based grids work/have worked.

[crunch]

Mike/NZeder, most of the cars you mention did run in the time, along with other sports cars such as the U2s, Lotus 7 like and more specialised cars. No there was no class for them per se, but they did take part. I did a couple of events with the Sprite and before that the MGA. They were low level events, but we did them. It was in the sprit of "I would rather be out there" than hoping for good results, and fun was had.
I don't think that the lack of a "production car class" was imposed by anyone, just not enough people wanted it to happen. Remember these were valuable cars for most of us that we needed to drive to work on Monday.
It does not seem that long ago that there were very few classes, in some cases it was saloons, sports cars and single seaters, that was it. It is only in more recent times that the class thing has proliferated.

Very good points

[nzeder]

I remember doing that in my first 240z racecar. Drive to the track, take 4 rims that were well placed around the cage and passengers seat, swap these for the road rubber change the koni shock settings then race for the day and drive home once the day was over.

I have a feeling I will be doing the same with the current project too as I don't have a trailer and the cost of one is almost a season of race entry fees

I do recall all those cars I mentioned running in the late 80's at the Whenuapai Taccoc days. Those were some great racing as I recall with a good mix of cars.

[crunch]

I remember doing that in my first 240z racecar. Drive to the track, take 4 rims that were well placed around the cage and passengers seat, swap these for the road rubber change the koni shock settings then race for the day and drive home once the day was over.

I have a feeling I will be doing the same with the current project too as I don't have a trailer and the cost of one is almost a season of race entry fees

I do recall all those cars I mentioned running in the late 80's at the Whenuapai Taccoc days. Those were some great racing as I recall with a good mix of cars.

That is too much work for a historic race day Mike! I intend just driving to circuit, take lunch out, race and drive home again. Forget the slicks, just a good set of road tyres

[ERC]

The trailer is the best investment I have made. Since I bought it I have saved way more than the initial cost. The annual cost of keeping the Marcos on the road, Wof, registration, authority card and insurance, pushed the cost per km to ridiculous levels, so trailering was a better option, even though still on the one and only set of road wheels/tyres I possess.

Equally, shunting the Magnette around from workshop to workshop from the bare shell to its current state over the last 9 years would have cost thousands in hired trailers, not to mention the inconvenience and often, the lack of availability.

Also very useful for fetching timber, gib board etc!

[Limezed]

Also Murphy Law says your car will only break the day you don't have a trailer.

[Steve Holmes]

Yes that is a problem - the 240z is not a sport car under the FIA it is a Production Based GT car not a sports car. A sports car under the FIA is a limited number special series or purpose built race car - that is the FIA Appendix J definitions for the era the car represents. Cars like the 240z, TR's of Triumph, Corvette etc are out in the cold in NZ motorsport as they are not identified as mass produced GT cars but as these "Sport Cars" which they clearly are not specials/low built or race cars only aka a Le Manns Ford GT40 is a Sports Car as is the Nissan/Prince R380, or Porsche 917 - they are "Sports Cars" under the FIA Appendix J of the 70's and a Datsun 240z, Triumph TR7, MG, Corvettes are GT cars.

That is a big difference in my eyes.

I love the 240z, and the 2-seat 260Z. Simply beautiful cars. I can understand your enthusiasm for them, and why you're building one yourself. Your comments in an earlier post about these cars not being accepted in some classes because they're Japanese might have been the case twenty years ago, but I don't think its the case today. I remember moving back to NZ in the mid-1990s after living in the UK, where I'd attended several high-profile historic racing events, in which Japanese cars were just as welcome as anything else. I was surprised to get back to NZ and find there was still some snobishness towards Japanese cars in NZ historic racing, yet late model Porsches, replica Shelby Cobras etc were all OK. I found this strange, but I now think they're finally being appreciated for what they are. Typical New Zealand, always a little bit behind the times.

Re racing the Z with touring car/saloon car grids, its unfortunate you have a passion for a car that doesn't easily fit in many categories. In period, the 240Z was considered a production sports car, and therefore, raced with other production sports cars. Brock Racing Enterprises ran Datsun 1600s in the SCCA Trans-Am sedan championship, and Datsun 240Zs in the SCCA C/Production sports car championship. Throughout the world the Z cars rarely raced anywhere as a touring car, because either they only had 2 seats, or their cabin size was too small to be classified a touring car. About the only sports car to make the cross-over was the Porsche 911, but this was only very briefly. The Z didn't race in NZ, Australia, the US, or the UK as a touring car. So in historic racing today, with touring car racing enjoying bigger grids than production sports car racing in most countries, racing a Z is always going to limit your options somewhat.

Given there is growing interest in people building pre-1978 production sports cars to T&C or Schedule K rules, I’m surprised nobody has made the effort to try and round everyone up and put a grid together at the Festival. You’d have the Datsuns, Corvettes, Morgan Plus 4 and 8, Triumph TR3, Tr4, TR6, TR7, TR8, Porsche 911, Austin Healey, Lotus Elan, the numerous MG’s, etc etc. Check out the 50 car grid at the recent Phillip Island Classic: http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6356347...776.92D/View?5 And this group has an earlier cut-off date than 1978, I think its around 1970.

Maybe food for thought further down the track?

[nzeder]

Thanks for that info Steve and you made me look at the books and online for entry lists (and the rules/grids of the day) and I recall seeing period videos of BMW 2002, Alfa 105 and Datsun 240z + Corvettes and Mustangs on the same grid - but they did run in different groups - just sometimes in these same grids.

A bit more digging found most of the groups were combined for endurance races which explains why I have seen photos and videos of the both Sedans and Sport Car (or GT depending on who and how they define a Sport Car vs GT).

All this is by the by and why I like the ERC group as they put a grid together as happened in period - Sedan's and Sports & GT cars in the same grids aka all production based cars if you wish. If they did not cars like the Datsun 240z, TR's, Marcos, Morgans etc would not have a grid to run in. Unless like you say someone was to make a grid for them - but currently why would one when ERC allows these cars to run and as pointed out by Ray already he has to combine the 2 groups already into one grid - so why take cars away from this group?

[ERC]

The other point that some are overlooking is that even in NZ, 30 years ago, the annual Le Mans Relay races had teams of Daimlers, Morgans, Lotus, Triumphs, Austin Healeys, XK Jaguars, Bucklers, MG Midgets, Triumph Spitfires etc, but you rarely see them out on the track in any great numbers now, as they are deemed too valuable to race, or, open cars need a load of ugly scaffolding. Only MGB's are seen in any great numbers today mainly because they were massive sellers and all parts are still available, including bodyshells.

We know that many of our drivers still own very interesting cars but now keep them as Sunday drivers or show cars and who can blame them? Racing is very hard on the cars and accidents will happen as I know only too well, as not that long after I had totally restored my car, an over enthusiastic driver who should have known better, caused a minor incident that spun another car and in trying to get past it on the grass, his bumper ripped a great chunk out of my rear wing. Far easier to run a more recent BMW where panels are readily available.

We will never see TR2/3/4/5/6/7's, Lotus Elan +2s, Austin Healeys, Morgan +4s etc., out on the track again in any great numbers, any more than we'll ever see a full grid of Aston Martins or E Type Jaguars racing in NZ.

We do still get a great variety but the mix isn't what it would have been 25 years ago and it will change over the coming years - not necessarily for the better either, so I applaud anyone willing to risk an interesting car, as it is so much tougher (and more expensive) than the common options.

[Parnelli]

And don't forget the big part of the ERC group is the handicap setup. It is the leveler that

1. Makes for great racing to watch.
2. Put big smiles on the competitors dials.
3. Allows for cars and drivers of different levels of performance to compete in the same race.

And that system and the way Ray and his merry little helpers set these handicaps make the series a winner.

Years ago when the Datsun Z club use to hold a race meeting not the driving training/track days it does these days. We did time based grids with handicaps and it was FUN. It was hard work in those days with stop watches for timing in the old bus but the smile on everyones face was worth the stress in the timing bus.

The point handicaps and time based grids work/have worked.

I don’t quite understand what this Handicap Setup is ? In a class where the “Cars are the Stars “ , if you had handicap races then surely some of the ‘ fast star cars ‘ may not cross the line at the front of the field ! Surely you are not suggesting risking fast cars by starting slower cars in front of them ……………

[ERC]

Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!

There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.

The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.

One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?

If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.

It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.

[crunch]

Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!

There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.

The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.

One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?

If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.

It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.

Of course, it goes without saying that according to the Historic & Classic philosophy that all MSNZ clubs subscribe to; that there should be no winners or competition...so it's all academic really....isn't it??

[Parnelli]

Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!

There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.

The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.

One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?

If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.

It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.

Yeah Ray, The tongue stuck to the cheek makes it hard to eat the humble pie. My point was the added fun for both competitors and spectators that is achievable under a handicap race system far outweighs a procession of fastest cars first. Some of the most remembered races in history have been when backmarkers work there way thru the pack and idealistically everyone finishes on the same lap , fairly close together.

[Limezed]

Another thing the handicap promotes is drivermanship. Ie a fast car with not so skilled racer (as opposed to just being able to set fast lap times in practise) may not do as well as a slower driver that can get through traffic.

Put me down as a fan of ERC.

[Steve Holmes]

The other point that some are overlooking is that even in NZ, 30 years ago, the annual Le Mans Relay races had teams of Daimlers, Morgans, Lotus, Triumphs, Austin Healeys, XK Jaguars, Bucklers, MG Midgets, Triumph Spitfires etc, but you rarely see them out on the track in any great numbers now, as they are deemed too valuable to race, or, open cars need a load of ugly scaffolding. Only MGB's are seen in any great numbers today mainly because they were massive sellers and all parts are still available, including bodyshells.

We know that many of our drivers still own very interesting cars but now keep them as Sunday drivers or show cars and who can blame them? Racing is very hard on the cars and accidents will happen as I know only too well, as not that long after I had totally restored my car, an over enthusiastic driver who should have known better, caused a minor incident that spun another car and in trying to get past it on the grass, his bumper ripped a great chunk out of my rear wing. Far easier to run a more recent BMW where panels are readily available.

We will never see TR2/3/4/5/6/7's, Lotus Elan +2s, Austin Healeys, Morgan +4s etc., out on the track again in any great numbers, any more than we'll ever see a full grid of Aston Martins or E Type Jaguars racing in NZ.

We do still get a great variety but the mix isn't what it would have been 25 years ago and it will change over the coming years - not necessarily for the better either, so I applaud anyone willing to risk an interesting car, as it is so much tougher (and more expensive) than the common options.

Yes I do agree with that Ray, although I think the rising value and rarity of parts on these cars is only part of the problem. I think it also relates to the fact, as things currently stand in NZ historic racing, its a fairly pointless exercise building one of the cars listed above, because its only going to be thrown in with a group of more modern cars, fitted with even more modern technology.The fact they can get 50 cars on the grid at the Phillip Island Classic suggests there are people willing to build and race these cars, but only if they're racing against similar cars from a similar era.

[ERC]

Steve, you are falling into the same trap as other critics. Handicapping levels the playing field and we already have cars from the 1950's competing against cars from the 1990s.

Aus has a catchment of 16 million people and we have 4. The UK has a catchment of 60 million plus close and easy proximity to Europe via the channel tunnel.

Even if everyone in the north island who REALLY wanted to race, did so with their older sports cars, we still wouldn't have a full grid.

If there really was a demand for period purism, why doesn't TACCOC have an over subscribed grid of them, as they have run meetings for the purists? This argument is constantly advanced by critics of our series yet there are already alternatives for the purists, but we still don't see them competing. We only do six meetings a season, leaving plenty of space for others to run other series if they so desire

Classic Trials also caters for those with classic sports cars but we have only really seen a few - Arthur's TR3 for example and Mike Sexton's Austin Healeys. Traditionally, that has been the stepping stone for many drivers and if they were over subscribed, or over represented, a grid for them would very soon have been established.

As Rhys Nolan has already found out, the same applies to older saloons. They have never been excluded from race meetings and when given a grid of their own, there is little support. The opportunity to race pure cars has never ever been denied but if there was a real demand, then where are they?

I grew up when a sports car grid contained interesting cars and there were many makes and specials (Tojeiro, HRG, Keift, Lea Francis, Lister, Turner, anyone?). Over the years, fewer and fewer makes of sports cars were available and not many people these days own or drive sports cars.

Those that have survived are rarely raced not because they are facing modern technology but racing is hard on the car. A sector of our sport believes that you shouldn't lock away the scarce and valuable wings or trim and fit fibreglass replicas or fit a bullet proof gearbox, and that doesn't help get them on track either. Others believe that even with a full cage, you have to wreck a dash board or a rear seat and refit them or refit a headlining. Lets not discuss roll protection!

These issues are excluding cars and maybe some should be looking at the real reasons why cars are not out on the track instead of pointing fingers at areas where cars are running.

[RacerT]

Yes I do agree with that Ray, although I think the rising value and rarity of parts on these cars is only part of the problem. I think it also relates to the fact, as things currently stand in NZ historic racing, its a fairly pointless exercise building one of the cars listed above, because its only going to be thrown in with a group of more modern cars, fitted with even more modern technology.The fact they can get 50 cars on the grid at the Phillip Island Classic suggests there are people willing to build and race these cars, but only if they're racing against similar cars from a similar era.

Very perceptive of you Holmes!

[John McKechnie]

I have been told by some competitors that the Beach Hop is on March 29 -30 and for that weekend, that is where they will be.
Last year it was the Leadfoot.
It appears that this could be just one reason why cars are not out on the track running