ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[Kiwiboss]

Hi Rog. Lately the ERC series has been split into Arrows Wheels and AES, so the ERC 'brand' hasn't been used. I'm a big fan of Ray's series and commend the amount of work he does. It's not a perfect world and it seems that motorsport is more imperfect than most!
The rest of the world is based around cars racing as an 'era field', but here in NZ we race series, so it has been hard to get competitors to change their way of thinking. But on the other hand, series coordinators are great to have because you are just dealing with one entity instead of all the competitors, so there are pros and cons for both styles. The ideal would be for all of Ray's cars to be on COD's, but that is never going to happen. Remember Ray is from a country where some guy called Ellis picked up the soccer ball and ran with it and then invented a new game! Maybe it's in the blood!

Still a great debate on here but RacerT hit the nail on the head, it seems that NZ old car racing is mainly “Race Series” based whereas the rest of the world is “Vehicle Era” based. What we are doing with HMC is vehicle based, where anyone is welcome as long as your vehicle is legal. Unfortunately there is still some resistance but many are starting to “get it”. The “Series based” old car racing is a bit uneven, hard to control, and really relies solely on the series co-ordinators which means the rules or interpretation of those rules that can change easily when someone else is in charge or changes occur in the committee.

While this is not really a problem for series events, it can cause something like the Festival (that is making people focus on Historic racing) to either head one way or the other. Either down the track of series rules or proper historic enforced rules.

Remember old car Historic and Classic racing is meant to be “about the vehicle” and the moment you modernise the vehicle its a “Club Car” and is now unfair on the other ‘proper’ classic or historic cars who do not have the benefit of the new technology.

In HMC the four fastest cars have pretty much hit the brick wall of performance and consequently everyone can catch up, but no one could pull away unless modern technology is applied. As this is strictly banned we are going to ensure close exciting racing without the need for handicapping every race.

Ray writes excellent postings and I for one barely have enough time just for this one. However anyone who posts a disagreement against Ray’s line of thinking get his written “essay ramblings” that slowly but surely moves it away from the original query. There are clear indications that there are some people that disagree with allowing cars that are not within the rules, but their concerns are pushed aside or ignored with the argument that numbers are more important.

I stated in posting #84 that “i see ERC as a mish mash group where rules seem to be more guides lines than offering up historic values in the vehicles” Ray thinks this is me saying that ERC has NO RULES, but this is not the case. I know he has rules but they’re only interpreted by a one man committee as in his posting post #99 where he states I do have the luxury of being a one man committee. Didn’t some guy in 30’s Europe try running a country like this LOL? It is important for all participants to know that if they comply with a rule they can expect all others in the field to have also done so. Otherwise what is the point of rules at all if they are not applied to all.

He provides an arm length long list of all these entries and vehicles available for his “race series” but to me that’s easy when breaking your own rules, I too could do the same in HMC if I wanted to include every non-conforming muscle CAR in NZ.

You see nzder is making a huge effort to build a period correct “Era Based” 240Z to T&C but how are you going to like it when you line up on the ERC grid alongside another 240Z that’s a hot-rod club car built to no real regulations but he got “invited” by Rays one man committee as he’s on the list and a good guy but that’s OK because he’ll handicap the shit outta him? Hell I’d be pissed, maybe others won’t but I have my doubts. Handicapping everyone so they meant to cross the line evenly is pretty cool and I’ve had some of my best racing in handicaps but this is not historic racing, but it’s the only way ERC can even out its unlevelled playing field rather than enforce regulations? Some of the biggest accidents in NZ motorsport have been around this format, but if one really wants to see this type of racing go to a club event as there’s plenty happening most weekends on tracks around NZ.

Filling up the grids with more modern post 12/77 vehicles only has the effect to drive away the older car owners even further but once again Ray uses the excuse that “well” they’ve become too expensive, owners don’t want them damaged, they’ve restored them all. Sure they don’t want them damaged, imagine some cheap non-legal modern invited vehicle driving though the side of your beautifully restored historically correct older 240Z. The point being made by Ray, that opening up the class allows some of the old race cars to be raced ‘rather than sidelined’ ignores the other side of the argument that the true compliant race cars no longer want to race as they run the risk of accidents or just being non-competitive despite being correct. Over time it only gets worst with less and less older vehicles showing up and that’s the case these days.

LOOK, at the end of the day I don’t expect you all to agree with me and I know this, and I see nothing wrong with ERC as it is a fantastic well organised, well run and well-oiled machine. But it is ONLY CLUB RACING nothing more and certainly not anything about classic or historic values (yes I know he does have some historic T&C and K saloons in it). You see I originally started this debate because here is a club racing series that has now been invited to NZ’S best historic event and I don’t see this as a good move for the future and still don’t. This is NOT about how ERC is run or what cars they should let in, but more about whether a series of this nature should be at a premier event.

I find it interesting how the Festival of Motor Racing has become a very popular premier event and now everyone wants a piece of the action! You could say I am actually criticising the event organisers and not Ray or ERC. I have already apologised to them both, it simply amazes me (shaking my head) that it is purely self-interest, rather than looking at the bigger picture of pre 12/77 Historic and Classic saloon racing in this country.

I for one don’t say that HMC is by any means perfect either, but what myself, Tony and Steve saw was many big bore saloons sitting around with nowhere to race because of exactly the problem we are discussing. The allowing of cars that are not compliant into the class, which pushes out the ‘more correct’ cars as they are no longer competitive due to the ‘hotrod’ cars being grandfathered or being let in due to committee or personality or series co-ordinators reasons. We are making sure we change that, so any Era based car that is compliant is allowed to race and those that are not compliant are not. This is for the good for the class, the good of the racers and good for the cars. They can remain competitive without having new technology thrown at them and the chase for HP or performance by throwing large chunks of money at them each year can be avoided. Sure there is going to be a bit of pain in the growing years while numbers are built up but in the long run the result would be a fantastic class of accurate vehicles that is not a ‘cheque book racing’ series.

Dale M

[Kiwiboss]

I have been told by some competitors that the Beach Hop is on March 29 -30 and for that weekend, that is where they will be.
Last year it was the Leadfoot.
It appears that this could be just one reason why cars are not out on the track running

Yes John, we are loosing competitors because of other events like this especially when on the same weekend!! One HMC member mentioned to me that because he race at the Festival he really needs to take the family to the hop as promised. Between Jan and April it seems everything is on here in NZ.

Dale M

[RacerT]

Yes John, we are loosing competitors because of other events like this especially when on the same weekend!! One HMC member mentioned to me that because he race at the Festival he really needs to take the family to the hop as promised. Between Jan and April it seems everything is on here in NZ.

Dale M

Hi Dale

HRC sets its race calendar 9 - 12 months out and endeavours to avoid other peoples events, but it seems that they often have little regard or knowledge of our events and often move from their traditional date onto ours! Lead Foot did it two years in a row, so we are trying to work with them now. Beach Hop hops all over the place, so very unpredictable!

[ERC]

Remind us again Dale about the total amount of panel damage at the Festival of the last few years?

Club cars? Oh dearie me.

Maybe you are one who would prefer we took the whole shooting match to Auckland car Club and left you with your tiny grids to gloat over the empty tarseal, whilst paying triple the entry fees you are paying now? Just remember when a 40 car ERC grid is out there, that your ten car grid (at best) is being subsidised by them.

You can ignore the realities as much as you like Dale but I suggest that you trawl back over the last 18 seasons and analyse exactly what percentage of the meeting income has come from our two ERC groups at the meetings we have supported.

You persist in pointing the finger at the series which by your own admission is successful and has been successful for a number of years. Your own series has yet to reach even a quarter grid of its own and much as you keep harping on about it, as yet, it is not a success as measured by any criteria other than the cars conform to a specific set of rules. Success has to be multi dimensional.

Our series goes well beyond just the racing as the camaraderie is the equal of any other series anywhere, usually proven by the turn out at the annual dinner - FREE to all paid up drivers.

Criticising a series because it is not run by a committee is sinking to a level that quite frankly, appals me. Whilst your choice of European dictator may suit your purposes, I think that maybe you need to look at Singapore's history as a counter. Anyway, who is the one with the moustache? LOL

To get it back on track, maybe (Alec Issigonis'?) the correct counter is - "A camel is thoroughbred horse designed by a committee."
or "The ideal is a committee of two - with one permanently out of town."

Maybe because it is St Patrick's Day today, there is a green eyed Monster lurking? Different philosophies but none are perfect - and some are less perfect than others.

Challenge or criticise all you like but it is the drivers who really decide, not me, not you, not MSNZ, not the H & C Commission.

Tony Herbert summed things up very nicely years ago when many cars were being denied a CoD for all sorts of spurious reasons, when dealing with the late JC (no pun intended.

"The trouble with JC is that he would only be really happy if every other driver was running a Wolseley 1500 fitted with a 1950cc MGB engine, Minilite wheels and an alloy crossflow head."

[ERC]

Just to remind anyone as to why we approached the Festival Committee, these are the programme grid numbers for each class - BEFORE attrition set in. I also checked on the finishers for each final race of each group but I see no need to publish those here but they tell the real story as to why the spectator view and opinion is so crucial at an event fairly and squarely targeted at getting spectators along.

F5000 & F1 – 23 cars
Historic Muscle Cars & Pre 78 Historic Saloons – 10 + 13 = 23 cars.
Heritage Touring Cars - 13
Pre 78 & Invited Sports, Sports Racing & GT cars. – 20 cars.
Pre 85 Historic Allcomers & Sports Sedans – 24 cars
BMW Open class – 16 cars
Classic Trials – 36 cars
Historic Formula Fords – 25 cars
BMW E30s – 19 cars
FJ/F3 & Invited Historics – 14 cars
Historic Formula Libre – 17

If this is our showcase meeting, then why wouldn't you want at least one full grid? Far from diluting the Festival, even if you discount any ERC cars anyone believes is marginal, we'd still be putting more genuine cars on the grid than almost any other group, so why is that so wrong?

The grid limit at HD for saloons is I believe 44 or 46 cars, so any saloon grid as above with empty spaces, tells its own story.

[John McKechnie]

Tony- By the way, Pukekohe didnt run their meeting last weekend because of the rain , and it is being run the March 29-30 .

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, you are falling into the same trap as other critics. Handicapping levels the playing field and we already have cars from the 1950's competing against cars from the 1990s.

Aus has a catchment of 16 million people and we have 4. The UK has a catchment of 60 million plus close and easy proximity to Europe via the channel tunnel.

Even if everyone in the north island who REALLY wanted to race, did so with their older sports cars, we still wouldn't have a full grid.

If there really was a demand for period purism, why doesn't TACCOC have an over subscribed grid of them, as they have run meetings for the purists? This argument is constantly advanced by critics of our series yet there are already alternatives for the purists, but we still don't see them competing. We only do six meetings a season, leaving plenty of space for others to run other series if they so desire

Classic Trials also caters for those with classic sports cars but we have only really seen a few - Arthur's TR3 for example and Mike Sexton's Austin Healeys. Traditionally, that has been the stepping stone for many drivers and if they were over subscribed, or over represented, a grid for them would very soon have been established.

As Rhys Nolan has already found out, the same applies to older saloons. They have never been excluded from race meetings and when given a grid of their own, there is little support. The opportunity to race pure cars has never ever been denied but if there was a real demand, then where are they?

I grew up when a sports car grid contained interesting cars and there were many makes and specials (Tojeiro, HRG, Keift, Lea Francis, Lister, Turner, anyone?). Over the years, fewer and fewer makes of sports cars were available and not many people these days own or drive sports cars.

Those that have survived are rarely raced not because they are facing modern technology but racing is hard on the car. A sector of our sport believes that you shouldn't lock away the scarce and valuable wings or trim and fit fibreglass replicas or fit a bullet proof gearbox, and that doesn't help get them on track either. Others believe that even with a full cage, you have to wreck a dash board or a rear seat and refit them or refit a headlining. Lets not discuss roll protection!

These issues are excluding cars and maybe some should be looking at the real reasons why cars are not out on the track instead of pointing fingers at areas where cars are running.

Don’t get me wrong Ray. I’m not criticizing your ERC series, or the fact you’re racing at the Festival in 2015. I applaud your efforts in running an excellent, well organised class that caters to, and welcomes a great variety of classic car owners, with an emphasis placed on fun, safe motor racing. I think your being included at the Festival is just reward for your efforts. And, it should be remembered, the organisers haven’t excluded another class to allow ERC to enter. So, really, whats the harm?

As the moderator of this website/forum, I’ve usually made an effort to remain neutral on most subjects, and have avoided making criticism of the NZ motorsport governing body. But in my opinion, many of the issues we’re seeing now are the result of decades of long-term neglect at the top level, and of letting the historic side of the sport run amuck for the last thirty years.

Remember, Australia may have a larger population, but competitors also have a much greater distance to travel to national events, so usually stay within their local State, be it Queensland, Victoria, NSW etc. New Zealand, on the other hand, is a small, compact country, with eight race tracks, and is a relatively inexpensive place to go motor racing, when being compared to other countries.

CAMS, the Australian motorsport governing body, was pro-active and forward-thinking, by implementing rules to create historic racing groups forty years ago, and has gone to great lengths to then protect what they’ve created. Likewise, they’ve moved with the times, creating new groups to then embrace newer cars, as they become older, but the rules have been produced just as thoughtfully, to ensure period correctness, within reason. Certainly, they’re not perfect, but at the same time, I personally prefer what they’ve achieved over what we currently have in NZ. Of course, CAMS are far better financed than Motorsport NZ, and those involved in the governing of the historic side of NZ racing are often doing so as enthusiasts, paying their own way, rather than being paid for the work they do, which in itself deserves great admiration. I’m also encouraged by what I’ve seen regarding some of the efforts being made by the NZ governing body towards paving the way to a more historically focused future.

It should be noted, that much of the discontent and confusion in NZ historic racing relates to saloon cars. Other historic racing groups, such as Formula 5000, Historic Formula Ford, Formula Junior etc, all feature cars prepared as period correct, ie, as they raced in period. Imagine the response if someone turned up to run with Historic Formula Ford in a 35 year old Van Diemen fitted with a turbocharged Sierra Cosworth motor, 5-speed sequential gearbox, and slick tyres. How quickly would they be asked to leave? Yet, in the saloon car side of historic racing, this scenario is so common, people think you’re a pioneer (or insane) to consider the prospect of fielding a grid of period correct cars. If it can be done in historic single seater racing, why is it so inconceivable in historic saloon car racing?

In historic saloon car racing, with much less guidance, and more fragmentation throughout the country, a case of ‘anything goes’ has become the norm, and we’ve seen numerous off-shoots all head in different directions, making up their own rules. And this has nothing to do with population size. The cars are out there racing, its just that they’re not period correct, as those in various historic single seater categories are. Why would someone go to the effort of building a period correct, Lotus twin-cam powered Escort to T&C or Schedule K rules when they’re likely to be racing against a similar make/model fitted with modern technology, which is therefore much faster? Further still, if someone owned an original car that raced in period, why would they want to bring it out to race against a modern variant, hidden beneath the silhouette of an old car? Honestly, if someone is given the option to fit modern technology into their car to make it faster, of course they’re going to do this. But is this historic racing?

And this is the underlying problem in NZ historic car racing. Because there has never been any policing of regulations from the top, as there are in other countries, so the interpretation of what actually constitutes a historic race car has become so blurred, even those racing in it are confused. And so now, we have this situation where people argue over what does, and what doesn’t constitute a historic racing car. Some argue that as long as the classic silhouette is still there, its OK to have modern technology underneath, because the punters in the grandstands don’t know the difference. Others say historic racing is a celebration of motorsport of the past, and therefore, historic racing cars should be built to represent how cars raced in period.

Yes, I agree, the handicapping system does level the playing field, but is this not a band-aid approach that masks a greater problem? Again, I’m not criticizing your group Ray, and indeed, I think handicapping could even be utilized in historic racing with period correct cars, as even when period correct, not all cars are created equal. But you have suggested handicapping to be the answer to a great many issues, whereas, to my mind, handicapping is required because of the infiltration into historic racing of modern technology, which has increased the speed difference between fast and slow cars.

I know you disagree with pretty well everything I’ve written above, and that’s OK, as this is only my opinion. I’m not trying to suggest I’m right, but in other posts, and other threads, you’ve made it known your preference to a large field of non-period correct cars over a small or medium sized field of period correct cars. So this in itself opens the door for discussion, which is all I’m doing.

Back to that 50 car production sports car grid at the Phillip Island Classic. Given the size of Australia, and even with 16 million people, to form a 50 car grid suggests that, around Australia, there are four or five times this number of similar cars, conforming to these same rules, that weren’t at this event. Working on that theory (an assumption, I know), surely putting together even a 25 or 30 car grid of similar cars, and even with a cut-off date through to 1977, if working off a set of T&C or Schedule K rules, is not that far-fetched? But then again, is it already too late?

[John McKechnie]

With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?

[ERC]

I don't disagree with anything purporting to be Historic, but once again, I have never ever claimed that our group is Historic!

Whether you are running Historic Muscle cars, Historic Single seaters or Historic saloons, the title says it all.

Why do people try and compare our group to any historic group running to a very clearly defined formula? The broad umbrella is "Classic and Historic" (and the as yet undefined, Thoroughbred).

Running a Formula Junior is straightforward. You run to the Historic Formula Junior regulations of the period, ditto Historic Formula Fords or F5000s.

As Steve rightly points out, saloons are a slightly different animal, given that there have been any number of series with tight rules from Escort Mexicos up to and including BMW E30s and there have also been any number of races just for 'saloon cars', being cars with a roof and 'sports cars' being cars without a roof, both in race and road trim.

If we were pushing the ERC Series as an Historic Series, then our rules would be totally different.

But as we have cars of different capacities, ages and genres and even different levels of modification, we are more Classic & Thoroughbred, even though according to some critics, all cars are fitted with modern componentry which they obviously aren't...

Handicapping is essential where there is a performance discrepancy between the cars as without it, those running 1500cc cars don't turn up - which happened in the NZ built and Clubmans class which ended up with everyone running 2 litres and turbos and the 1300cc and 1500cc guys wanted to join our group - which we couldn't accept.

[crunch]

With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?

...use a wheelchair?

[nzeder]

Maybe some of these posts could be moved into an existing thread - there are a few on this forum that are around T&C, Schedule K rules. So this can return to back to ERC related info - after all this is Ray topic.

Some good info/opinions in here but I would like to see this in a thread about T&C, Schedule K in general. I think it is good to see these opinions/debate. I just feel it might be better placed in a thread/topic that is more relevant to the direction that this has moved to. Or am I wrong?

[John McKechnie]

...use a wheelchair?

motorized?

[crunch]

But in my opinion, many of the issues we’re seeing now are the result of decades of long-term neglect at the top level, and of letting the historic side of the sport run amuck for the last thirty years.

Personally; I think that comment has a lot of merit. It probably all started when the COD was initially given to every car that was around when the system started! So the system was flawed right from the start. Gone is any meaningful sense of the word Throughbred from our sport.
I did try to bring H&C more into line with the CAMS model about 6 years ago, but was met with a lynch mob at an Auckland meeting who wanted to string me up by the proverbials for daring to suggest it.

Tuesday will be interesting...

[nzeder]

Tuesday will be interesting...

So what is happening on Tuesday????

[John McKechnie]

Yet another day of talking about this probably...........

[AMCO72]

The fact that the Festival Committee has seen fit to include the ERC series in its line up for 2015, should have silenced the critics, but clearly it hasn't.

[crunch]

The fact that the Festival Committee has seen fit to include the ERC series in its line up for 2015, should have silenced the critics, but clearly it hasn't.

Maybe that's because the Festival decision was a commercial one, as opposed to people discussing the sporting aspects of what Historic racing is?

Just saying...

[rogered]

Just to remind anyone as to why we approached the Festival Committee, these are the programme grid numbers for each class - BEFORE attrition set in. I also checked on the finishers for each final race of each group but I see no need to publish those here but they tell the real story as to why the spectator view and opinion is so crucial at an event fairly and squarely targeted at getting spectators along.

F5000 & F1 – 23 cars
Historic Muscle Cars & Pre 78 Historic Saloons – 10 + 13 = 23 cars.
Heritage Touring Cars - 13
Pre 78 & Invited Sports, Sports Racing & GT cars. – 20 cars.
Pre 85 Historic Allcomers & Sports Sedans – 24 cars
BMW Open class – 16 cars
Classic Trials – 36 cars
Historic Formula Fords – 25 cars
BMW E30s – 19 cars
FJ/F3 & Invited Historics – 14 cars
Historic Formula Libre – 17

If this is our showcase meeting, then why wouldn't you want at least one full grid? Far from diluting the Festival, even if you discount any ERC cars anyone believes is marginal, we'd still be putting more genuine cars on the grid than almost any other group, so why is that so wrong?

The grid limit at HD for saloons is I believe 44 or 46 cars, so any saloon grid as above with empty spaces, tells its own story.

Notice the group with the most entries quietly flies below the radar, and happily does their own thing, with out all this "codswallop".

[AMCO72]

Yes, but its not as if Ray had offered them $100,000 to be included. They obviously think the cars are worthy competitors, and are not going to dilute the special nature of the event, which is one of the core arguments of HMC.

[ERC]

Crunch, I think that you'll find that many CoD's were in fact refused for spurious reasons in the early days of the system and as it came out not long before there was a move to make them compulsory, the system started off on the wrong foot and in some respects, has never really recovered. Fear of not being allowed to compete was the only reason I got mine (and others who like me are still on the earliest version) and it has never been out of the envelope since the day it arrived.

Am I the only one on here that wants a clear distinction between Historic and Classic? All Historic cars are also classic, but not all Classic cars could be deemed historic.

A CoD is somehow seen as a magic document but as JAFA pointed out elsewhere, they can be out of date quite quickly even though the car may still confirm to the current T & C rules.

Why are the "rules" T & C yet everyone is arguing about Historic? Why does the HMC Series need to tighten up if the "rules" are bullet proof? In other words, you can have a car built to T & C and have a CoD, but will still be refused entry to the HMC Series as your car may not conform or be accepted as we all know that a CoD is no guarantee of acceptance in any grid or any meeting.

That power is still held by Series organisers and meeting promoters which is exactly the course we have always adopted. The inconsistency of saying that OUR cars do not conform to T & C nor have to have a CoD is compared to a series where even with them, you still may not be allowed to race, is one of those ironies that most seem to have missed. I love it!