ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[ERC]

Thanks Tony. I have just put out a newsletter expanding on this. The AES handicap final race with 22 on the sheet had spread of just 30 seconds from flag drop to last away.

The final Arrows grid also with 22 cars had a 70 second spread and as you know, this was the first day that anyone had ever beaten the provisional 1:13 speed bar.

Putting this is perspective, we started off with a speed bar of 1:12 - OLD Pukekohe track in 1996... and that was generally 10 seconds from the Hampton Downs times, so an initial 1:22 at HD would have been the break out. Now that is almost the breakout for the AES group!

Tyres have improved out of sight over recent years and led to quicker lap times, rather more than any other performance modifications. Maybe the classic scene is going to have to look at tyres that may well be DoT rated but not 100% road legal and suspect in wet weather, as apparently they have no lateral grooves to dispel water. Are they in fact outside the spirit of the regulations?

Should the H & C Commission investigate this and make a ruling or a guideline?

[Kiwiboss]

Well done Tony, that is a big change to go to the 15" rims on the Corvette and for some (not sure if this is case for you) it could mean brake changes to allow for the 15" rim fitment - a cost that might not be as simple as new rubber and rim. This could change the Corvette grip level too.

If we have more do this - change their cars to meat the rules (Ricky changed from 16" rims down to 15" a while back, and I have seen others do the same over the past 12+ months) then we will have more compliant cars out there it might facilitate others to change too ie remove their sequential gearbox, cosworth engines, EFI on cars never sold with EFI.

Too rite Nzeder, the feed back from the weekend within the Historic and Classic movement is several are considering fitting period correct size wheels and historic type tyres so we have a bit of trend going on here!! several in the U3L cars have question me on availability of the Hoosier bias tyre in the correct size so they are thinking about it!! Certainly with our bigger HMC cars its the way only to slow them down, have period correctness, and put on a show the way the cars rock and roll as in the past.

Personally, I luv driving on the big ol rolly bias tyres as it gets your attention for sure and tests your skill, LOL

Dale M

[Ricky]

Sundays race 3 handicap, great race got thru the cars better but still couldn't get to the front.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_p...PBHRtMuj3FA63w

[crunch]

Tyres have improved out of sight over recent years and led to quicker lap times, rather more than any other performance modifications. Maybe the classic scene is going to have to look at tyres that may well be DoT rated but not 100% road legal and suspect in wet weather, as apparently they have no lateral grooves to dispel water. Are they in fact outside the spirit of the regulations?

Should the H & C Commission investigate this and make a ruling or a guideline?

What about it being a topic of discussion at the AGCM H&C workshop? If you cant make it to the workshop at Conference; send me your written submissions at crunch1@xtra.co.nz

[CobraV8]

One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.

[ERC]

What about it being a topic of discussion at the AGCM H&C workshop? If you cant make it to the workshop at Conference; send me your written submissions at crunch1@xtra.co.nz

I think Tony is already on to it Crunch.

[ERC]

One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.

Remember this is a 'road-going' series CobraV8 and although some cars are now trailered, the aim is to be able to turn up, empty the boot and go racing.

As soon as you allow non road legal tyres, the cars are then effectively racers. I had a discussion with Dale's mate Mike at the weekend and we debated at what point a car no longer becomes a road car and is a race car. His take is that when a cage is fitted and my stance is when the tyres are no longer road legal.

To me, fitting a cage is simply a piece safety of equipment that doesn't make the car go faster and the car is generally still road legal.

Fitting race tyres however immediately renders the car illegal for road use. It also ups the costs of competition.

[nzeder]

I agree Ray, a cage is a safety item like a fire extinguisher, helmet, suit etc. If we took 2 standard same spec viva's one with a cage one without handed the keys to your tame racing driver they should both perform about the same. The extra weight of the cage will be offset by any chassis improvement. So in theory both should still be the same aka road cars just one has a safety cage.

I guess that is why the T&C rules are like they are pre 78 more engine, suspension, brake mods permitted but tyre aspect ratio and rim size limited. Post 78 more freedom on rims and rubber but limited engine, suspension and only brake material changes permitted (no big brake kits)

[Carlo]

Remember this is a 'road-going' series CobraV8 and although some cars are now trailered, the aim is to be able to turn up, empty the boot and go racing.

As soon as you allow non road legal tyres, the cars are then effectively racers. I had a discussion with Dale's mate Mike at the weekend and we debated at what point a car no longer becomes a road car and is a race car. His take is that when a cage is fitted and my stance is when the tyres are no longer road legal.

To me, fitting a cage is simply a piece safety of equipment that doesn't make the car go faster and the car is generally still road legal.

Fitting race tyres however immediately renders the car illegal for road use. It also ups the costs of competition.

It becomes a race car when it no longer has Registration, and a WOF, and a Motorsport Authority Card and Low Volume Vehicle Certification as all these items are required for road use with competition cars these days

[ERC]

It becomes a race car when it no longer has Registration, and a WOF, and a Motorsport Authority Card and Low Volume Vehicle Certification as all these items are required for road use with competition cars these days

Not quite. I opted to take my standard road car running on road tyres but fitted with full harness belts, off the road as it wasn't financially viable to keep it warranted. The cost per km and inconvenience of keeping it warranted and registered and an annual authority card for zero road miles a year does not suddenly turn it into a race car. No need for a LVVTA plate on a standard car.

Equally, I can't get the MG on the road legally, because the welded repairs done 9 years ago, do not have a repair certificate, so even with an LVVTA plate and an LVVTA approved cage (not MSNZ approved) and road belts, road tyres and up to WoF standard, built as a road car can't be registered, as the compliance won't register it without that certificate, but again, it doesn't magically become a race car just through the lack of a piece of paper.

Sure, a car can be modified and be road legal in a higher state of tune than a standard car used for racing, (U2K Cup for example), but the end use doesn't re-categorise the car.

[Parnelli]

I agree Ray, a cage is a safety item like a fire extinguisher, helmet, suit etc. If we took 2 standard same spec viva's one with a cage one without handed the keys to your tame racing driver they should both perform about the same. The extra weight of the cage will be offset by any chassis improvement. So in theory both should still be the same aka road cars just one has a safety cage.

I guess that is why the T&C rules are like they are pre 78 more engine, suspension, brake mods permitted but tyre aspect ratio and rim size limited. Post 78 more freedom on rims and rubber but limited engine, suspension and only brake material changes permitted (no big brake kits)

Hi Mike, Can you clarify your statement about no “ big brake kits “ under T&C rules. Previous discussion on a different thread was stating something similar and that such cars with Willwoods fitted were being rejected for C.O.D.’s Other groups running under T&C rules claim Willwoods to be period correct and are getting C.O.D.’s with them fitted. Is this one rule for one class and other for another class or just another failing of the C.O.D. system ?

[Kiwiboss]

One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.

No No CobraV8, sticky slicks and cheater DOT tyres have a soft rubber compound hence wear quicker, its the ability to adhere to the track that counts as a harder road compound tyre resists more and the reason why you get tyre squeal when corning hard, the softer DOT or slick does not squeal(so much) but is shedding rubber you can't see until its worn out, the very reason why V8 Supercars have tyre changes during races!! and as we know this comes at a cost, EG: need more tyres.

On older cars a quick speed fix is to add modern technology slick type tyres that can over come the older suspension systems but the flip side to this is a huge wear rate on the tyre, i would be 2 sec's a lap quicker around Hampton in the mustang but could shred a full set of slicks in a weekend, that's not cheap racing and only forces others to do the same!!

Too me it doesn't matter what the tyre is as long as all are on it but you also must use caution as the more serious racer may fit a new set every race to have that slight advantage(its been done) but at this stage one should question what they are at "Classic or Historic" events for, but some just can't help themselves! atleast Rays handicapping sorts these gentlemen out, LOL

Dale M

[nzeder]

Parnelli,

In regard to your question if you look at the T&C rules Group 3 and Group 4 is for saloons or sports/GT cars from 31 December 1977 to upto 15 years old.

Then if you then look at the brakes the only permitted mods are friction materials ie pads etc. Rotors and calipers can't be changed from the oem items or oem spec items. Eg wilwoods are aftermarket caliper so not oem so can't be used on a post 77 T&C compliant car.

[RogerH]

Parnelli,

In regard to your question if you look at the T&C rules Group 3 and Group 4 is for saloons or sports/GT cars from 31 December 1977 to upto 15 years old.

Then if you then look at the brakes the only permitted mods are friction materials ie pads etc. Rotors and calipers can't be changed from the oem items or oem spec items. Eg wilwoods are aftermarket caliper so not oem so can't be used on a post 77 T&C compliant car.

That may be the case for a post December 1977 car but the T&C rules are different for pre 31 December 1977 cars.

For these pre cars, brakes are "free" subject to disc and drum friction surfaces being ferrous. "Free" means that the original part may be replaced with a newer part as long as the new part provides no additional function relative to the original part and must be from the same era and was available or used on that make and model in period. "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition.

This could be interpreted to mean that an original 4 pot calliper could be changed to a Wilwood 4 pot of similar dimensions if it could be proved that the Wilwood (or the form of calliper on which the Wilwood was based?) was available to be used in the period (era) related to the subject car.

[nzeder]

That may be the case for a post December 1977 car but the T&C rules are different for pre 31 December 1977 cars.

For these pre cars, brakes are "free" subject to disc and drum friction surfaces being ferrous. "Free" means that the original part may be replaced with a newer part as long as the new part provides no additional function relative to the original part and must be from the same era and was available or used on that make and model in period. "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition.

This could be interpreted to mean that an original 4 pot calliper could be changed to a Wilwood 4 pot of similar dimensions if it could be proved that the Wilwood (or the form of calliper on which the Wilwood was based?) was available to be used in the period (era) related to the subject car.

correct.

[Howard Wood]

One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.

Despite Dale's reply, by and large I think you are right. The Dunlop (DoT and NZ road legal) tyres I use come in Soft, Medium and Hard. Many of the other BMW series guys also use them and the tyre life, particularly the Soft and particularly at Taupo can be alarming. I screwed out a Soft set in a weekend of qualifying and 3 races before changing back to the mediums. However they are quicker and the tyre performance deteriorates noticeably as they wear so if your budget was not an issue, guess what?

The Hankook in question is a G51 compound and in slick form will last V8ST long format races with no deterioration and there are several class A BMW guys who use second hand V8ST tyres, they do seem to deteriorate with multiple heat cycles but don't wear out. The question of going away from DoT tyres comes up each year at the BMW series AGM and the argument for slicks is always a cost based one, many of the front running class B guys would love to be able to run the Hankooks as well.

If there is no series rules, eg ERC or BMW (or indeed HMC) that specify DoT AND NZ road legal then I can't see any reason why the Hankook is any different to the Hoosier for a meeting such as NZFMR. Both are a DoT compliant semi race tyre, both have reasonable tyre life and are (relatively) cheap.

[ERC]

Neil Tolich has sent me a very good email stating a case and I have passed that on to Crunch and Tony.

There are arguments for and against (aren't there always!) but my own take is that if a driver comes along with his road car and one spare wheel, then we know exactly what to expect in terms of track performance and lap times.

I have a pile of emails thanking us for the season and complimenting the other drivers for not only being aware of what is around them, but consistently high driving standards.

If a driver is going to keep swapping tyres, then first of all, it can make a mockery of the handicaps, but it also means that whereas you normally know where and when it is safe or overtake (or get overtaken in my case!), all of a sudden, you are taken by surprise.

Bearing in mind most of our drivers are just amateurs, I am not sure that this extra dimension of uncertainty is a good thing. I would never go along with any form of control tyre as it is not feasible in our series, so we'll always have a variety of tyres.

Will the harder charger type pull off and pit when one of Pukekohe's cloudbursts hits, or will he run the risk of falling off and maybe taking another driver with him?

Maybe this tyre issue deserves a new thread of its own as it needs debating?

[Parnelli]

Thanks Mike and Roger for your clarifications.

[Jac Mac]

The addition of a cage to any saloon has an effect on the chassis stiffness, most competitive cage builders will probably try to take advantage of this.
Wider race type slicks or DOT Hoosiers etc will by virtue of extra grip will distort the compliant factory rubber bushs in the suspension to the point where you have to make changes to get the tire in full contact with the track ( the dropped inner fulcrum point of the top wishbone on Dale & John Mck's cars along with probably many others, is a step in that process ).

[Bryan]

The addition of a cage to any saloon has an effect on the chassis stiffness, most competitive cage builders will probably try to take advantage of this.
Wider race type slicks or DOT Hoosiers etc will by virtue of extra grip will distort the compliant factory rubber bushs in the suspension to the point where you have to make changes to get the tire in full contact with the track ( the dropped inner fulcrum point of the top wishbone on Dale & John Mck's cars along with probably many others, is a step in that process ).

That's the bit that scares me about building up an "historic" 1972 saloon, even for ERC, when the factory designed the suspension for skinny standard crossplies (or 165x13 radials on the "performance" model).

Do all the suspension mods necessary to stop it tripping over on "sticky" tyres take it outside the spirit of the rules, or just plain bust the budget?