ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[Frosty5]

OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!

WOW Dale, I'd love some of that bait you used when I go fishing, you hooked some real biggin's there!! However at the end of the day people just want to race and have fum and that should be the focus. Sure, have the period correct vehicles (just love 'em)and the likes of ERC's classes but please lets not get to precious about it all. It's more fun on top of the dirt than below it!!!!!
Dave Graham

[AMCO72]

It is one thing being passionate about a branch of motorsport, and quite another making derogatory comments about other peoples efforts to get a different class of motoracing accepted.

Dales outburst was quite extraordinary, and he meant every word, as we all know on here how he views cars that he considers should not be racing in Classic events. How do I know he was serious......because he omitted to put those 3 little letters after what he had written........LOL. He has been a regular user of LOL in the past when he has made some tongue-in-cheek comment, so would have to assume that post #50 was not tongue-in-cheek.

Because the cars that he allows into his fields are correct, though I wouldn't know one from the other, he should not really be racing against, or with, cars that dont fall into that category. But as he can only field about 8 or 10 'genuine' HMC cars at the moment, he invites the under3 litre cars in to bolster up the grid. Well I think at the next festival, those under 3 litre cars should compete in ERC's class as most of them would fit. ERC might be in the enviable position of having an over subscribed grid and be able to pick and choose who competes and who doesn't.
That leaves HMC struggling along with a tiny grid, and even with all the bluff and bluster of a V8 would still be pretty boring to watch. .....a high speed freight train.

We could say 'stuff the spectators', we are doing this for our own enjoyment, and who cares what they think, but this I believe would be a recioe for disaster. We are playing to an audience and we actually quite like it.

So Dale just tone your comments down, follow your dream, but just remember, that HMC is NOT the star turn on the track, YET. When you can field a grid of 40 cars I might be persuaded to change my mind, but I cant see that happening anytime soon.

[Shoreboy57]

As a spectator, I'm glad to see Ray's proposal was supported by NZFMR and I'm looking forward to seeing the ERC series run at the festival. Maybe its not 'historic', but the class adds variety and depth. Both are, IMHO, needed for the festival across two weekends.

[Howard Wood]

Ray's series promotion/ information thread seems to have been hijacked!

Maybe what we need is a separate thread on the direction the NZFMR (and other top drawer or wannabe top draw historic events) should be headed. In that regard, (shock horror and I seem to be the only one) I agree with Dale that in a perfect world the Festival should be trying to set a higher standard. To be consistent, in that same perfect world I don't think the Festival should be including the BMW series despite my being a regular competitor in that series.

The real issue is: Are there enough historically correct cars available to run the Festival as a "Period Correct" event?
I believe the answer is "yes", however for whatever reason, there are not enough prepared or able to enter the event. Why?

For me, I would pretty much give up every other event if thats what it took to do the Festival but clearly this is not the case for others. The reality is that the organisers need the revenue stream from full grids and if the only full grids they can get are from BMW and Ray's series then they have no alternative. Of course, in my view the status of the event will then inevitably fall away to where it is just another race meeting and the opportunity is gone.

At this point I wonder how many entries from Ray's series will be prepared to pay the (much higher) entry fees for NZFMR when for the same money they could do several events?

Catch 22, you betcha!

[AMCO72]

Howard. I think Rays thread is getting plenty of promotion/info from the discussions going on here, not high-jacked.

Why do you say that the Festival would be down graded if the likes of ERC's group was let in? The Festival to my way of thinking is not promoted as an Historic Racing event, but as a Themed Event.......McLaren, Hulme, Ferrari etc, and the racing on the day happens to be with 'Historic' type cars......ie not super tourers, drifters etc. So apart from stuff about the featured driver/make, the rest of the meeting is, as you put it, just another race meeting, wrapped up in the hype of the Festival theme. The theme is of course the drawcard I think, and the spectating public know by now what sort of racing to expect.

True, the cost is considerable, but you said yourself you would be prepared to forego all other meetings to do the Festival if that is what it takes. I still think the 2 weekends in a row on the same track is not the best idea. We did go to Puke the first year but since then has all been a double banger at HD. I know there is a big cost shifting around to other tracks.....Taupo, Manfield, and that the organisers want to maximise their profits from one venue, and this is probably the sticking point........ back to the old dollars and cents again.

[ERC]

I am led to believe that the entry fee for the one weekend for us would be $295. Given that it is 50% higher than a two day weekend but with 50% more track time, it is not expensive and I doubt that it will dramatically affect the numbers entering.

We did poll all our drivers before approaching the committee and had massive support and for it to be a points round.

If any of our valued ERC regulars are suffering any form of financial hardship then I am more than happy to come to an assist arrangement. Heck, we supported Barry Algie at the Festival yet we had no ties whatever to him or his car! JAFA (and the family) also supported Barry to an even greater degree, with financial and practical assistance and this is what motorsport is all about, getting cars onto the track.

I believe that there are overseas entrants expected in at least three classes and the two weekend format works well enough as long as those who have travelled from overseas can race both weekends and we locals are more than happy just running one. If the Australian Muscle cars are coming over, then they won't need the support of the U3L group anyway.

Howard, you are always welcome to join our group as currently, I think you may be the only U3L who ISN'T part of the group. Dennis McConnell (Ford Escort) was the only other and he has just paid up and joined us.

I'm too not sure what the future is for the U3L group other than racing at events to which we are not invited.

[Howard Wood]

I have always seen the NZFMR as an attempt to emulate the Goodwood Revivals or more realistically Philip Islands of the "Historic Motor Racing" genre. As I support this concept I have always supported the event in the hope or expectation that little ol' NZ can maintain such an event on its calendar. Not just maintain it but grow it too.

As you correctly point out, it is expensive and takes up 2 weekends right in the middle of summer holidays when sane people should be out boating but for me if it remains true to that ideal I will try to continue to support it. By the same token, if it becomes (to my mind) just another race meeting frankly I have better things to do at that time of year.

There are still some of us who would like to see the NZFMR flourish as a true Historic event but unless the potential entry pool supports the event it can't survive in that form. This is not to denigrate Ray's series, the BMW series or any other but to my mind, once the Festival looses its lustre it will be hard to bring it back.

To run a meeting such as NZFMR funding is needed not only from competitors and spectators but also sponsors and that is probably the real reason for the "themes". As I understand it, BMW helped in 2013 and Gulf are behind next year's Ganley theme, I suspect Ferrari less so this year and think that Porsche will be a hard nut to crack for funding the following year.

[ERC]

From my point of view, the Festival as others have pointed out is a bit special, because of the theme and also the massive amount of work that goes into promoting it. Coming as it does in the middle of our summer is pretty good as it is also a definite attraction for those who would be in the middle of winter.

Having been to Goodwood's Festival and also the Revival meeting, they are more than World Class, but they are not running bog standard Austin A35s and Standard 10's either! Goodwood's location attracts not just the Brits but also the Europeans and a fair smattering of Americans.

I have no idea what the entry fees are but I do know that to enter the Monaco Historics for example you'd be spending the equivalent 10 Festival weekend fees.

Much as we accept the Goodwood stuff as ideal, remember that they have also had the "Wacky Racers", drag cars, genuine Hot Rods and a host of other stuff from left field - and much of it is not at all purist at their Festival (the hillclimb) and it never claimed to be.

The Revival race meeting is a bit more purist but they are now blighted with professional race drivers running far too hard in other people's precious racers, so good that it all is, we can never emulate Goodwood, we have to do the best we can with what we have got.

When 18 of our drivers approached me and explained why they did NOT enter the HD Festival, it was a case of either lie down or stand up and be counted.

Before I finally hang up my helmet or pull out of organising the series, I'd like to think that we have made a positive and enduring difference to NZ motorsport. If others see it as a negative, that is their choice, but we do not need to erode the Festival ideals. Any class finishing with just 5 cars on the track at the conclusion of racing, is not a good look and is no Goodwood.

[RacerT]

My knowledge of the Festival is quite intimate, so I can explain some of the philosophy behind the decisions that have been made.
The aim was definitely to raise the bar with the range of historic and classic cars, try to import exotic international machinery and to run a 'proper' field of cars as is run at oversees historic and vintage meetings. This was to define certain classes and race periods and have scratch racing, thereby giving the enthusiast an insight into a typical field of cars that would have been seen in that period. So if it was 1960, the cars would be period correct and reflect the performance of the cars in period. Hence the control of modifications was important to get right, so that as they were, so would they be now.
Certainly we aspired to the "Goodwood of the South" (a theme that Highlands has now pinched!), but have found that Kiwi's aren't really into a lot of that Pommy dressing up stuff, fancy marquees or cars being exactly period specification correct (unless someone else is paying for it). For instance we had a mutiny when we tried to make everyone have a marquee with a sign board for the public to read - what $300 extra, no we're quite happy with drab thanks and a gypsy camp look with mismatched Esi-ups.
Running the ERC series at the Festival is a pragmatic approach, just as the BMW E30 and open classes were at the BMW Festival.
The feedback that Ray received from his ERC members showed that they wanted their normal format of scratch and handicap races, so we are willing to oblige with that. They have also asked to run the second weekend only, so the first weekend can accommodate many of the ERC cars in a pre 1978 field if the competitors want to race two weekends. This should increase the fields of both weekends.
The entry fee of $295 is for 3 days, which when considered against a normal race meeting of two days (for $230) is actually cheaper!
We are working hard to bring in 20- 30 racing cars from overseas for the next Festival, so let's celebrate the Festivals as something special each year and work together to achieve this. Tony Roberts

[Shoreboy57]

"so let's celebrate the Festivals as something special each year and work together to achieve this".

Nicely said Mr Roberts

[Spgeti]

Go for it Ray....I look forward to seeing cars like the Renault R8 Gordini's etc. We need variety to add to the grids. The cars are not that far off being period correct...go for it.

[CobraV8]

The best race event I have ever been to is the leadfoot festival run by Rod Millen. Part of the reason for it being the best is the variety of vehicles and people that are involved. We are all out to have fun, look at some cool cars, and chat to like minded people.

I have been involved in classics, club racing, and all are fun. I see a place for standard car racing, modded cars etc, they all have their place.

The only thing I can say in reply to Dales outburst is that it confirms that I'd never be a part of that series (not that I'd be welcome in my cars). An attitude of being better than everyone else just doesnt have a place in a fun sport.

[crunch]

An attitude of being better than everyone else just doesnt have a place in a fun sport.

Unfortunately that attitude is prevalent throughout all branches of our sport.
Dale doesn't see himself as being better than anyone else. If you think that then you don't know the man. It was a case of where you should wait 5 minutes before you press the send button....

[crunch]

I have been involved in classics, club racing, and all are fun. I see a place for standard car racing, modded cars etc, they all have their place.

.

Agree

[ERC]

Like Tony's comment earlier, there are times when pragmatic decisions have to be made for the betterment of the sport, and that also means that a touch of realism creeps in and overrides purity.

From my perspective, the cars that do not conform to our original "Euro, pre 1977 and run-ons, effectively to a road-going specification" have added colour and variety. These include the Datsun 240Zs, as we realised very early on that they had no suitable place to race; Neil's ex-Segedin Mustang (this was pre HMC remember); the six cylinder Holden Torana formerly run by Andre Mortimer as logically, as a fully trimmed 6 cylinder car, it was outclassed by the V8s in the other Muscle car Classes.

We also had a huge respect for Mike John's Targa and in its early days, it had some great, individual cars but the drivers were effectively limited to running them at Targa events. We looked long and hard at Jo Hill's Herald V8 and realised that here was a spectacular car/driver, who wanted to race at classic events. Whilst some (most, outside the series) were aghast at us allowing it to run, it was a group driver decision who saw it as adding colour and a valued addition.

As it happens, it has never actually run at any of our meetings, but our rules do allow a limited number of such cars per season subject to various limitations - and before anyone says that it was self interest on my part, these rules were written well before I started my own project.

Ironically, because I now have the coveted LVVTA plate, I still can't get the car on the road due to the regulations regarding the repaired panel work needing certifying... That also means I can't race it in our series as the rules state that such cars have to be road legal with a current WoF and registration!

With dwindling supplies and increasing values of pre 1977 cars, many owners have opted to not compromise the classic purity by the fitment of roll cages and have retired their cars. In many cases, they have opted to race a more modern classic, not for success on the track, but for reliability and easier spares and servicing.

As I have pointed out before, we enforce clean driving standards and although accidents unfortunately do happen, the standard of driving is in most respects, far more important than car purity.

With one or two drivers pushing the envelope, yes, rules may well be more rigidly enforced, but what we end up with is still a good sized grid. Once again, spectators do not know from looking at the programme, exactly what is under the bonnet and many of us in our youth always assumed that the car packing a 3,000cc power-plant, should be much quicker than one packing 1600cc, but as you grow up, you realise that is not the case, whether modified or bog standard. That is why Phil Foulkes MG Midget was faster than all the MGBs.

Part of the fun of classics is that you know the cars are not identical and it adds a dimension that the modern control classes do not have.

[fullnoise68]

In reference to Howards comments about maintaining the `calibre' of the Festival, I agree with him and I also understand where Tony is coming from with the need to get more bums on seats, or victims through the gate. While there are those on here that don`t `get' what HMC is about - and no, it`s not all about Dale - those of us who run in HMC also enjoy celebrating a very popular era of NZ motorsport history, and this is quite obvious by the punters interaction with each of us in HMC at each Festival. I can tell the critics now, with a larger group of the Aussies bringing their cars to next years Festival, and quite a few new NZ HMC cars, it`ll be great to watch.
I know a few of the guys that run in the ERC class, and I`m not bagging the class either, but actual reality and commercial reality are what set different events apart which is what Tony was getting at. If the Festival is to become something bigger and better we need to get more companies like Gulf involved annually, whereby the Festival becomes part of their annual budget spend, and other companies will follow suit. As far as sponsor identity versus sponsor spend goes, that can be as subtle or as imposing relative to their annual spend, whether as a class sponsor or an event sponsor. In HMC for example, Health House have supported us on a small scale, whereas if they were to stump up for the cost of our marquee each Festival, and thus saving each of us an additional cost, then their commercial involvement with HMC would also increase. If this was duplicated with each of the other classes, the whole event becomes more professional in appearance, organisation of each class is easier, and both the punters and potential sponsors will enjoy it more. It`s not about pushing each classes wheelbarrow, it`s about keeping the Festival as a good, well run, commercially viable event while still having the participants understanding what we are all there for.

[AMCO72]

I get a bit tired of being continually accused of 'not getting' what HMC is all about. I think we all appreciate what that class is trying to do, and the driving force behind it.

For the rest of us, the great unwashed on here, we are happy to be a part of the scene with our scruffy old jalopies, and just being able to compete with all this illustrious machinery around us.

I might point out, that NONE of the HMC cars ever looked as immaculate as they do now, in their day. Just take a look at the old clips of them racing, and frankly they are heaps of junk held together with number 8 wire and rivets. But they did the business. And that 'doing the business' is what made then so popular.......what NZ motoracing was all about, and we are continually being told that this is what we are trying to emulate. What we have now is a sort of mobile concours.

If what HMC is doing turns out to be the right thing, and the rest of us continue on our way blissfully ignoring all the advise given, well then we have only ourselves to blame. It may come that presentation, organisation, and dedication will count for everything, and this will mean that a lot more cars than at present will be parked up.........for ever.

I do remember the 'mutiny' at the Bruce McLaren festival when the competitors were told/ordered to hire a marque at $300 a pop. We virtually told the organisers to get stuffed, and that we would supply our own shade, hence the gypsy look of the pits. I don't think it detracted from the atmosphere of the event at all, quite the opposite in fact, and that event did have atmosphere. Maybe it was because it was the first one, and the calibre of the chap we were celebrating, but subsequent festivals have never quite captured that buzz again.

We are not Goodwood, never will be, so just lets do it our way and be thankful that we dont have to pay Goodwood fees!

[ERC]

Agree with both the above posts. When the Formula Juniors for example were jammed into a crowded marquee, for spectators, you felt as though you were intruding and had to be very careful you didn't accidently trip and fall onto a body panel that had been removed. It was also very difficult to take decent photographs with everything jammed in together.

Having a garage at Hampton Downs anyway, I certainly wasn't going to pay $300 for a marquee as well! With individual Ezi-ups, the owners and cars were far more approachable and access to support vehicles was also a lot easier and it was easier to get the car out as and when you wanted.

Remember that entry to the Goodwood Revival pits is limited to Goodwood Members only and not to the great unwashed. The joy of NZ Classic events is that paddock and pits access is free and overseas visitors particularly, love that Kiwi/Aussie laid back approach rather than the multitude of "jobsworths" and security staff at European events.

That laid back attitude transcends to some of the classes and that is no bad thing as AMCO points out, cars in their heyday were often extremely tatty and now those with patina even if not 100% original, are accepted instead of being frowned upon.

ERC does about six rounds a season but the cars often do several other events and that is as it should be as it gives them an opportunity to race with or against different drivers/cars and on different tracks. Who would have it any other way?

[AMCO72]

There was also an appalling fire risk in those big marques, and no way to get cars out should there be a conflagration. Yes I know that spare fuel cans etc had to be stored outside, in a big dump by the door, making for an even bigger Guy Fawkes should a naked flame be present.

Was having a chat to Ernie Nagamatsu, owner driver of 'Old Yeller', and he, jokingly, said.......'I hope no one is smoking in here!!!!!!!

[fullnoise68]

I`m terribly sorry Gerald, I thought we were talking about the NZ Festival of Motor Racing, you must be talking about another failed Festival of the past ....Sweetwaters. What was that old saying, `adventure before dementia'. As for the old cars being heaps of junk, that says a lot about your complete lack of respect and knowledge. Tell Ray Stone his workmanship was shit and see how you go. You for one don`t `get' what HMC is about -end of story. It`s not about being elite, it`s about maintaining a standard worthy of the Festival having some national and international credibility, not some broken arse excuse book for why it's not working. It costs a hell of a lot less to be a spectator at the Festival than it does to be a competitor, but as it`s only once a year people need to get in a financial position to be part of it. If I remember correctly, when I raced in the Nissan Mobil 500 series it was about $1800 entry fee...... but then again it was a pretty special event.