Repowered Classics

[ERC]

We have a set of regulations in the MSNZ book for Historic and Classic racing that form a framework for H&C racing in NZ, along with the COD system to verify that competing vehicles do in fact meet these regulations. This is workable except for the number of series that spring up not quite adhering to the H&C rules. Just lately we have had the new MX5 series start up with its own set of rules that don't compley with the manual. Why? These cars could have just as easily adhered to the Historic and Classic racing existing rules and ensured an easy absorbtion in the future - now they won't. Same thing with the BMW E30 class, old enough for H&C,but misses out by running a single seat and allowing the glove box to be removed. Why are there four Muscle Car groups? Surely some common ground could be found?

A few relevant points here - and thanks for all the responses.

1) Our series was in existence long before CoDs...

2) The reason one or two series, including BMW E30's and Alfa Trofeo (and our own) plus presumably MX5's do not conform is because within the T & C rules, if adhered to the letter, are not 100% workable.

3) With the Alfa's, they run what the drivers want - knowing more about Alfas than anyone else.

4) Ditto BMW E30's.

5) Having standard dashboards, glove box lids, rear seats, headlinings, original window lifting mechanisms, all original exterior chrome trims etc. are generally petty rules that might be OK if it wasn't for the practicalities of sourcing, (particularly with older and scarcer cars - try and get the hockey stick chrome trims for a Magnette...) fitting decent roll cages etc.

6) You have made the assumption that the T & C rules are totally bullet proof and perfect. They are not and never have been. With Alfa Trofeo, we went through every single word and submitted our suggestions and also the reasoning behind them. Had the Commission accepted them in their entirely, (apart from the repower issue which we left open for a new set of rules), then both Alfa and ERC runners and BMW E30's would have conformed without any real dilution of the intent of T & C.

Although all are entitled to an opinion, I fail to see how standard window winding mechanism or a glovebox lid is so important. We insist on a front passenger seat but why is it so important?

Does anyone think that the average paying spectator sitting up on the bank cares a stuff?

As for running repowers in a separate series, by all means, but let's walk before we run/race. Unless there is a viable grid (which there isn't at the moment), then I am quite happy with them in our series to the agreed limitations as stated earlier. When and only when are there enough around to make it viable will it happen.

AMCO72 - I have give up doing the festivals as much as it is nice to race in front of an appreciative crowd, several of us have opted out having supported the earlier festivals, as scratch races only, with such disparate cars and massive speed differences, is neither racing nor enjoyable and in the wet, distinctly unsafe. Mixing under 3 litre cars, several of which are very standard, small and not very quick, with Muscle cars may appeal to the David & Goliath supporters, but in truth is not very apealing either.

Putting modern gear in old cars makes them a great club car, but it is not for Historic and Classic racing. Imagine the dissappointment of an old guy wondering up to an MG Magnette and saying to his grandson, "this were great old cars son. I remember taking your grandmother for her first date!" Then "Aaaaah what have they done to the engine, the whole cars wrong, oh my heart!"

I am not advocating putting a modern engine into an old car. This message board is full of people raving about Zephyr Corvettes, Morraris, V8 Starlets etc, so let's get this in perspective. A Morrari recreation is not exactly going to upset grandad when he spies a Ferrari engine under the bonnet of a car he did his courting in.

People have modified cars since day one and sorry, but restoring a totally knackered Magnette to original was never going to be worthwhile, as it was too far gone in all respects and just not worth it, much as I love the Magnette as a standard car.

There are times when people tend to forget that we are a small country with just 4m people and the heritage of NZ has always been to adapt with what is available. Purism is wonderful, but once again, who wants to see a grid of six pure 1100cc Ford Escorts and more to the point, it is not a viable, economic race grid unless race entry fees aren't to skyrocket - and who would pay to watch them anyway?

Several smaller "pure" race groups (super historics stands out here and Clubmans a year or two ago) have been very heavily subsidised by the larger less pure groups so be careful what you wish for... Any grid with less than 15 cars on a regular basis is not contributing much to the financial viability of the meeting.

[Howard Wood]

Maybe most people either don't have an opinion or don't care so it does make it difficult to establish a way forward.

Ray,

Don't think we don't have an opinion, I'm willing to bet there are some pretty strongly held views here on the subject but the various views were being reasonably well articulated. However, surely there is room for all combinations and permutations, a chrome and polish rodder may not want a rat rod but can appreciate it never the less.

For classics the issue used to be getting enough entries to run a class which I guess is why regulations were initially loosened and that probably still applies at the "lesser" meetings. More prestigious meetings such as the HD Festival meetings can be picky about purity and Goodwood can command a full grid of Ferrari GTOs at 10 million quid each.

For me, the beef is more about modern components and the VCC stance where a car's age is determined by the year of the MAJOR components seems to make sense. The Cosworth YB example is clearly an '80s engine, any car with a YB, whether its a Mk 1 Escort or a Sierra should run with "80s cars, similarly a sequential 'box is probably '90s therefore any car so fitted is a "modern" as far as I am concerned. I am not sure you can legislate about minor components such as shocks and springs, oil or even tyres except as regards size. The unavoidable fact is that the technology is those areas has improved vastly and even your GTO will be running modern oils because to do anything else would be lunacy.

As regards engine transplants, I can see no issue as long as it was done as in period and nobody is trying to pass the result off as some famous car from whenever. Of course a repowered car would never comply with sched K for example and if that were the entry requirement of a particular series or meeting organiser, then so be it.

On the other hand, if a series organiser such as the BMW series draw up regulations too far away from accepted H & C regs, that is their perogative but anyone building a car purely to those regs would be well advised to remember that the world is littered with redundant one make series race cars.

[ERC]

Perfectly well balanced response Howard. Thanks.

Just so that you can see what I am talking about! Thought it was about time we had a pic to lighten the words.

Cruddy interior


Even worse bodyshell with the whole of the sills and underfloor area and lower bodywork stuffed. The front was even worse. The engine and brakes were seized. Front suspension tie bars so corroded that they snapped on dismantling.


Work in progress last year


Ditto

[RogerH]

Ray, your Magnette looks a very interesting project (I was following it on your site for a while) but it reminds me of a project I did a few years ago. The intent was to built a race sports/saloon and although it was not as radical as yours (the same engine was used), I soon clicked that with the "improvements" I was making (predominantly suspension and brakes) it was not going to find a home in classic racing. It is now a fast road car that I'm very happy with it in that guise but it taught me a lesson of checking to see if my project would have a home before I started planning the work and buying components.

[ERC]

The difference is Roger that mine does have a home if I decided to race it, as our rules allow it - and if yours is Euro, probably your's would also be welcomed.

[Racer Rog]

The difference is Roger that mine does have a home if I decided to race it, as our rules allow it - and if yours is Euro, probably your's would also be welcomed.

If that is the case Ray, why do you want a CoD?, its just a club car, you can't call it a classic, nor is it historic, the interior looks nice, (and very modern) but in many ways, its no different in mechanical terms, to the Hot Rod owned by my next door neighbour, his only took 5 years to build, its well engineered, as I don't doubt yours is, but in essence, they are the same type of car.
Roger

[RogerH]

If that is the case Ray, why do you want a CoD?, its just a club car, you can't call it a classic, nor is it historic, the interior looks nice, (and very modern) but in many ways, its no different in mechanical terms, to the Hot Rod owned by my next door neighbour, his only took 5 years to build, its well engineered, as I don't doubt yours is, but in essence, they are the same type of car.
Roger

I suppose Roger, you are saying something along the lines that what is the difference between a "re-powered classic" and this : http://www.ipernity.com/doc/155265/13271072

[Racer Rog]

Yes, totally correct, the next door neighbours is a Chev coupe, its repowered, early S/B Chev, runs like the devil is after it, put a roll cage in it and its a classic race car, NOT, this might be a extreme view, but what is the difference between what Ray has done, and what he has done, none in my mind, on the face of it both well engineered, but Classic or Historic, Nah.
Roger

I suppose Roger, you are saying something along the lines that what is the difference between a "re-powered classic" and this : http://www.ipernity.com/doc/155265/13271072

[RacerT]

If that is the case Ray, why do you want a CoD?, its just a club car, you can't call it a classic, nor is it historic, the interior looks nice, (and very modern) but in many ways, its no different in mechanical terms, to the Hot Rod owned by my next door neighbour, his only took 5 years to build, its well engineered, as I don't doubt yours is, but in essence, they are the same type of car.
Roger

Racer Rog you have hit the nail on the head! If you want to built a T bucket, or hot rod, say a '38 Chev Coupe, then go for it, but it will be a 'hot rod'. As a 'hot rod' it can join a Hot Rod Club and meet in parks, go for drives etc. The point is, that the 'hot rod' doesn't try to join the local VCC Club and expect full entrance to all their events and benefits of being a vintage car.

Ray, you mention that your series existed before COD's. Bit of a red herring, as it didn't exist before the MSNZ regulations.
Like many off the series running today, the promoters seek to put their own personal stamp on the series. In their minds it is for the best of reasons, but the result is still an array of invented regulations that almost line up with T & C, when with a bit of effort we could have a coordinated approach for the long term future - pity really!

Howard's last paragraph sums it up.

"On the other hand, if a series organiser such as the BMW series draw up regulations too far away from accepted H & C regs, that is their perogative but anyone building a car purely to those regs would be well advised to remember that the world is littered with redundant one make series race cars."

[ERC]

Racer Rog you have hit the nail on the head! If you want to built a T bucket, or hot rod, say a '38 Chev Coupe, then go for it, but it will be a 'hot rod'. As a 'hot rod' it can join a Hot Rod Club and meet in parks, go for drives etc. The point is, that the 'hot rod' doesn't try to join the local VCC Club and expect full entrance to all their events and benefits of being a vintage car.

Fair comment, BUT, the hot rod doesn't want to go on a race track, it is a show pony and therein lies the difference!

In my own case I am not after a CoD but the MSNZ rules for T & C have a milder requirement for scrutineering, recognising the safety requirements, particularly cages, which are very much a modern afterthought, and the design of the older cars was somewhat different to today's cars.

In simple terms, there exists a protocol and a structure for pure classic and historic cars, so in that respect, owners of such cars are catered for and catered for very well. I have no problem with that at all.

My point is that there is no coverage for the cars that sit between a modern club car and the genuine classics/historics with the intention of doing some track work, however mild or serious.

To simply state that because it isn't a pure classic, therefore it must be a modern is somewhat missing the point. That is like saying there is soccer and rugby, but rugby league or Aussie rules don't exist, both having their roots in the two former codes, or, one day test cricket, cricket max and 20/20 don't exists either.

The above examples are merely catering for a need that may always be a niche, but they do have support. How many here can't stand the tedium of a 5 day cricket test, but will happily watch a one dayer?

I love the purity of front engined GP cars of the fifties and the formula juniors of that era and even the pre 1970 GP cars, but I also love the way-out saloons and sports racers of the era. I really can't see the problem with accepting that not all want to adhere to the period purity, when so much of the period was anything but pure anyway.

The biggest complaint of modern racing is that in their quest for total parity, they have totally stifled the sport to the extent that it has little or no appeal to the average spectator let alone the enthusiast.

Within the classic fraternity, even at the Festivals, there have been so many one offs and specials that add a bit of interest to the grids. You may think that the "Comic Book Special" is indeed a joke, especially alongside the Coopers and period race cars but I thought it was just great to see it out there.

In a few years time, if we are not careful, we'll see a continued decline of genuine classics simply because they are getting too valuable to race. Take a look at the 1983 Pukekohe Le Mans relay race entry for example, then take a look at what is NOT racing any more on a regular basis, locally.

Examples: Morgan 4/4; Morgan Plus 4; Jaguar XK 120, XK 150, XJ12, E-type; Triumph Spitfire; Fraser-Nash Replica; Daimler SP250; Austin Healey 100/4, 100/6, Healey Sprite; Porsche 356; Triumph TR6, TR5, TR4A, TR3; Lotus Elan; Ferrari Dino; Reliant Scimitar; Lotus Europa - and bear in mind several of these were fielding teams, so there were several examples.

You can argue that scrapping a 1956 Magnette would be less ignominious than repowering it, but I suggest you try and take a look forward. Do you just want E30 BMWs, Ford Escorts, Capris and MGBs to be the only cars on the track, because that is the way it is rapidly heading as parts for them is relatively easy? Heck, you can even get a brand new Heritage MGB bodyshell and retain your existing rego number. Woodsman's axe anyone?

We have NOT seen a spectacular growth of support for Schedule K cars despite the constant pushing for it. We have seen a massive growth in drivers just wanting to go out and have fun, with a minimum of red tape.

[RogerH]

Ray - this is good robust debate and we haven't had to resort to abusing each other

A couple of issues :

I don't think the point about the hot rod not wanting to race is relevant as a hot rod is a rod hot irrespective of whether it sits inside as a show car, goes on runs, competes at the drags or anything else.

The genuine period "way-out" saloons are catered for under MSNZ's regulations but the problem is when someone wants to recreate a car that is meant to be something that use to exist but doesn't do it properly (Custaxie) or someone wants to create something that never exited but maybe could of. These perhaps could sit under Schedule CR but most Classic meetings don't provide for these cars as they are generally acknowledged as not being true classics.

The "Comic Book Special" is actually a genuine period car built in 1952 : http://bmhspecial.bigpondhosting.com/

[ERC]

Robust debate was always the intention Roger. I always appreciate different views and have been aware since the day I started that it was always going to be contentious. My greatest support was from the MG Car Club, right from day 1 and they are still the keenest of all groups to see the car completed.

As long as people don't throw beer cans at it or key it, I can live with any written or verbal criticism, but everytime I see under the bonnet or inside a so called genuine classic and see Kevlar air boxes, engine management systems, shift lights and yes, even gps video/data recorders, forgive my wry smile!

[Russ Cunningham]

Terrific debate on this thread and dignified. Hopefully some good things may come of it but just remember?....the world ends on the 21st of this month! Personally, I'm going to write myself off on the 20th and if I find we're all here still on the 22nd I'll continue my build on the Austin Princess. Already half way through with the kevlar bodywork.

[crunch]

Terrific debate on this thread and dignified. Hopefully some good things may come of it but just remember?....the world ends on the 21st of this month! Personally, I'm going to write myself off on the 20th and if I find we're all here still on the 22nd I'll continue my build on the Austin Princess. Already half way through with the kevlar bodywork.

Russ; can I respectfully suggest that if you are rebuilding an Austin Princess....you have already written yourself off!

Bruce; forgeting the personal attack last statement of yours, the reason I have referred you to Mike at the MSNZ office is that he is doing the research for me as the office has all the original paperwork submitted, and the email trail of the time. The reason I have not written an earlier reply is that I have been in Wellington since Friday and the two days before that were taken up with family time with a brother home from Spain for the first time in 5 years. Mike will get back to you and/or me with an answer. As I stated in my first reply to your question we obviously try to limit mistakes. If there is a mistake made, obviously no other cars will be given a Schedule RH COD is this configuration.
In future; I would appreciate less of the personal slurs.

I hope the world doesnt end on the 21st December as on the 22nd I am viewing a personal collection of historic race cars!

Great discussion, which I am sure the H&C Commission are following. Ray; your car is looking great, but in my humble opinion please find a better steering wheel??? It's a credit to you

Merry Christmas one and all and stay safe
Raymond Bennett

[woody]

Russ, Will the car be ready for the Denny Hulme Festival?

[AMCO72]

Actually Crunch, I think the steering wheel might be from a MG Montego. If it is, then its all in period. Cant see Ray using one from a Toyota Hilux!!!!!!!. Instruments look to be from a MK2 Jaguar, inserted into a dashboard from........Rays fertile mind.

[Racer Rog]

That will just at the rust line?
Roger

Terrific debate on this thread and dignified. Hopefully some good things may come of it but just remember?....the world ends on the 21st of this month! Personally, I'm going to write myself off on the 20th and if I find we're all here still on the 22nd I'll continue my build on the Austin Princess. Already half way through with the kevlar bodywork.

[GeebeeNZ]

ERC commented
"In a few years time, if we are not careful, we'll see a continued decline of genuine classics simply because they are getting too valuable to race. Take a look at the 1983 Pukekohe Le Mans relay race entry for example, then take a look at what is NOT racing any more on a regular basis, locally.

Examples: Morgan 4/4; Morgan Plus 4; Jaguar XK 120, XK 150, XJ12, E-type; Triumph Spitfire; Fraser-Nash Replica; Daimler SP250; Austin Healey 100/4, 100/6, Healey Sprite; Porsche 356; Triumph TR6, TR5, TR4A, TR3; Lotus Elan; Ferrari Dino; Reliant Scimitar; Lotus Europa - and bear in mind several of these were fielding teams, so there were several examples".

Ray I still look at and enjoy old tapes I have of races like the Porsche Lemans relay and wonder why we cant get those cars out racing again. I dont think that its just because they are valuable I think the modern regulations have had a big impact on it. Many of those cars ran without rollbars and were normal road cars. Once the roll bar regs came in along with the increase in fire safety requirements for overalls etc plus an increase in the cost of competition licences. many of the gentleman racers decided to call it a day. I am not saying the increase in safety requirements is a bad thing but I believe it has had an effect on the number of road going sports cars that we used to see race in large numbers.

Graeme

[nzeder]

Interesting topic Ray, I have been for the last 8 years or so been a regular spectator/helper for a few racers in your series. I now have 2 x Datsun 260z 2 seaters as my first one has body mods out side of T&C rules and an opportunity came up to purchase another part finished Targa/race car 260z. This new project did have a repower that also did not fit T&C so I am in the process of correcting the drive train issues and finish the assembly.

What I find interesting is how even MSNZ own rules have changed. I recall the T&C rules stated that body parts could be substituted for alternative material if the original parts where NLA (no longer available). However now in manual 35 this has been removed and body must be of the material as supplied at manufacturing. So does this mean cars that once conformed to T&C with fibre glass guards as original steel items are unavailable then today that car is now illegal under T&C?

The way I see it/read the regs schedule k is there for standard production cars (that is 100% as they were made with no option/catalogue parts allow to be added) or for the, let me state that again, for "the" 100% period race car as it was as it should be. So using your escort example Ray, a schedule k escort 1300 sport will be as it left the factory no mods no exceptions or it must be "the" one and only "Hannu Mikkola" winning car. Anything else fits under T&C no exception. Or am I reading it wrong?

The current T&C rules are clear allow for period mods and the use of period parts for those that want to race a modify classic. I personally believe schedule CR needs room for saloons, for those that want to build a replica of "Hannu Mikkola" winning escort, or a retrospective special of a 1970 formula Ford chassis with a Toyota 3k engine or Mazda 10a rotary or a rover v8...someone could have build these in period or did, so why not an MG with a V8 using period chassis and engine how is that different to the single seater retrospective special? Or am I missing something there too?

For me I like the series Ray runs, different marques have good clean racing and a handicap grid can aid in any performance advantage a V8 MG has over a pinto power mk2 escort. I hope that one day I can finish my track 260z and be allowed to join such a grid/series. In the mean time I wait for room in a certain fabricators shed/hoist to get me car there to sort out my installation of a stock drive line

Regards
Mike Lucas

[ERC]

We look forward to seeing you Mike. People have already made representations on your behalf! Good post. My car is now off the hoist and home as I try to finish off a small mountain of jobs...

A good point about fibreglass panels. As soon as I can, I'll revert to getting fibreglass front wings done for mine, as the ones I have are now just too scarce to risk on road or track. Ditto boot and bonnet lid. I have advertised for a spare bonnet and so far have only been offered two - both from the other side of the world and not exactly cheap, even without the cost of packaging, shipping and insurance, which is also a major factor when we are located so far from Europe.

As you point out, we are pragmatic about such things for very sound reasons - scarcity of originals. Once again, easy for an MGB or a Mini, not so easy for many other makes.


Well spotted. It is indeed an MG Montegeo wheel because the steering column and switches and wiper motor and delay unit are also Montego, and the column includes hazard flashers and switch. The speedo and rev counter are in fact MGB, the rev counter has been converted for a V8 and the instruments are period Smiths - of course. I'll happily move to a woodrim wheel when finances allow - and I can find one that fits!

The dash follows the shape of the original but is completely home made, as the original Magnette didn't have a rev counter or oil temperature gauge - and I can't stand "pod" or bolt on additions, so the original dash shape was simply stretched to incorporate the tacho and oil pressure gauge. Mixing mahogany and burr walnut never worked for me so it is now all burr walnut, with a padded dash top which is much safer than highly reflective polished wood.

If you have studied ergonomics at all, you'll also know that both MGBs and Aston Martins have a fatal design flaw - with hands at a quarter to three, you can't see the essential instruments... When you are doing a project like this, it seems rather pointless replicating the mistakes of the past when it is is so much easier to make improvements that are sympathetic to the whole car, hence incorporating a fan overrride switch and fuel pump switches with warning lights and a warning light for a low fuel level.

All those of us who ran Minis in our youth, went out and bought a stage 1 or 2 cylinder head, bolted twin carbs or a Weber, a LCB exhaust, added an oil cooler, dumped the grotty seats and fitted Corbeau or something similar and fitted a set of Cosmics, Dunlop or even Minilite wheels and fitted a straight through exhaust and an alloy rocker cover. Most also added a rev counter, possibly with an after market dash. Keeping a Mini bog standard just wasn't done and we accept all those mods today as period.

Hot rod? Customised? Call it what you will, but there is nothing that couldn't have been done in period and in that respect, I maintain it is rather more period than many cars we see out there.

Good debate - still - and hopefuly more will join in.