Roll cages

[ERC]

Continuation from the Shellsport Saloons thread. Suggest you read the latter stages of that thread first.

To summarise. Long term projects have been caught in a trap where cages built to the previous rules (main hoop metal spec has changed) but hadn't had the paperwork completed, can't get the cage passed without an engineer's report., This is required because the cage is deemed a "free design" and therefore has to conform to tests laid down by MSNZ. These tests dictate the amount of deflection given a specific force and at a specifc angle.

A newly built cage to the current specs and to an approved design will be rubber stamped within days. However, this approved spec would fail all the deflection tests.

So those trapped with longer term projects are faced with a cage that may be identical to 100's of existing, approved cages, but they are sidelined without stripping out the existing cage and replacing the main hoop, or, have built cages that are much stronger than the approved cages, but they can't get them passed.

[928]

Seems to me as an indemnity certificate is needed. You state that you do not want to race the car, but may do the odd speed event. If the regulators had a indemnty cert for you to sign, exempting them of liability, and you will take care of you own liability, the problem would be solved, surely. An easy a paper work exersize that should suit paper pushers down to the ground

[Rod Grimwood]

Quote; - Does anyone realise what the ramifications of scenario really are, on the one hand you have a roll cage that has been assessed by a registered engineer to be 25% stronger than that model recomended by MSNZ. This roll cage is deemed by MSNZ to be inadaquat so is not accepted.
The way I see it is that all MSNZ recomended roll cages that have passed as being suitable, are in fact going to fail, as they are 25% weaker than one that MSNZ will not pass as it does not fit the model that MSNZ are recomending.
I hope MSNZ have a very good insurance policy, as any resulting serious injuries or deaths will be looked at rather severely by the Labour Department, with all sorts of liabilities aimed at those who have signed and rubber stamped these cages off.
Your thoughts will make interesting reading. End Quote.

Note the Labour Department (now The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment) only deal in work related accidents, this is sport (apparently)

[rogered]

with out reading the manual. did it not used to be
as per the examples in the book, or
if of a different design, to be signed of by an engineer

[Carlo]

I understand that the current safety cage regulations are the current FIA ones and one would suspect that the FIA have done a lot more research into the various issues and designs than all of NZ motorsport, us guys included, have done in total.

Yes there are some like Dave who have been caught out with the regulation changes simply because they did not get their cage approved when they built it, rather they waited until the car was close to completion before going through the process. If we look around the traps you will see a number of cars that are still not completed but have had their cages approved simply becasue the owner understood that there was a cut off date for approval of the old design.

I still think that a representation to the Executive correctly written up with the appropriate evidence to prove that the cage was constructed as part of the car build and that the actual cage it's self was completed prior to the cut off date would go a long way to achieving the desired result. You need to remember that the Technical Dept do not have the authority to change the rules or issue any form of exemption and that there are more ways to kill a cat than drowning the damn thing in cream.

In the case of my car I have the opposite problem, I built my cage just before the information about the changes was released and it is built with the old spec main hoop. Because of this I am unable to use my car overseas and any thought that I had about taking the car to a couple of classic / historic rallies in Australia are now completely out the window as I do not intend pulling the car to bits to replace it. Unfortunately this has also reduced the potential to sell the car off to a Skippy when I get to doddery to drive it too.

[markec]

Aproaches to MSNZ officialdom gets no response,as the roll cage in question has had an engineers certificate sent in with the application, your argument doesn't hold water Carlo. In a real world situation, what you say would happen, but remember we are dealing with MSNZ.

[markec]

Has anyone had their car scrutineered by an FIA scrutineer at a European competition meeting ?, you will find they will not physically touch your car. All adjustments and removal of covers etc have to be done by the entrant or his agent.

[Bruce Sollitt]

Carl, MSNZ is too willingly to effect change and impose cost on competitors for the sole purpose of compliance with FIA and uniformity. Neither is a valid enough reason for change.

Many cars are permitted to compete in NZ motorsport by virtue of 'grandfather clauses' which tells us that the standards to which they comply are both adequate and acceptable. The sport has no business disallowing any other competitor to comply with the same standards.

Rather than needless regulation change, a simple advisory that our previous main hoop specs rendered those cars ineligible for overseas competition would have sufficed.

However, leaving that aside for a moment, if I recall correctly, the rule change had a well publicised lead time of around 18 months so it's perhaps a little misleading for those who didn't get their stuff together to claim to have been "caught out".

One would hope that the situation is not irretrievable and that a well presented case to the Exec. might bring a solution. Failing that, a remit at conference.
But there would need to be some legwork first to understand the extent of the issue. Perhaps a register of those competitors and cars effected.

[ERC]

Seems to me as an indemnity certificate is needed. You state that you do not want to race the car, but may do the odd speed event. If the regulators had a indemnty cert for you to sign, exempting them of liability, and you will take care of you own liability, the problem would be solved, surely. An easy a paper work exersize that should suit paper pushers down to the ground

If I remove the cage, the car is legal... That is the true extent of the frustration. If the cages to MSNZ's own design are approved yet fail the tests, then surely, the test requirements are too tough? (Or the approved designs are too weak?)

I am no engineer, but it appears to me that the cage installed in a 1950's steel shelled saloon has exactly the same requirements and design as for a flimsy thin, fibreglass bodied car. (Yes I know thicker fibreglass can be strong...)

When a project has taken many years and the original cage photos were supplied to MSNZ back in 2006 and the go ahead given for it to be painted, the final approval to be turned down because the correct paperwork wasn't filed in time, in my case, is accepted. What is NOT accepted or acceptable, is the test criteria, or in Dave's case, the refusal to accept the engineer's report.

We don't have to sign an indemnity if we run without a cage, so why should we need to with one? I'd happily sign an indemnity, but it is optional safety equipment, in the same way that neck restraints and gloves or four/five/six point harnesses are also optional.

The systems need looking at if all the criteria are not equal. Maybe there also needs to be a consideration as to potential use, power to weight etc.

[markec]

The ironic part of this scenario is, that if Dave Silcock removes part of the front section of his cage in effect making it weaker the cage would be acceptable. You explain the logic in that situation.As Dave said to me,'how would it look on Fair Go, taking part of a structure out to make it legal,by weakening it'.

[markec]

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fia...w=1600&bih=690

Go to the above site for images of FIA aproved roll cages.

[markec]

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...ge_padding.pdf

FIA Material specs

[grelley]

What has happened to Schedule AA for classic cars which was to a slightly lower standard. Could Sched AA not be ammended to encompass the older requirements.

[markec]

My slingshot Email address is disabled at the moment so try me on <mark@markcoulthard.com>

[Rod Grimwood]

Please don't start on FIA, we don't have enough computor space.
Who are they, what do they do for US. (NZ'ers)(classic people) Why do you have to have a mother to play, lots of orphans do very well by themselves, in fact the most successfull around were once orphans.
Is it true they share offices with the IRB. Must have nice lunch's together on our money (fees)

Sorry, I will do a hundred lines for being naughty.

[ERC]

Sorry guys, but I can't post much at the moment.

Whilst contorting my aged body last week, dealing to the front cage, to make sure it isn't there any more, I have severely twisted my back and I assume, dislodged a vertebra, trapping a nerve. I have spent more time at the emergency clinic, chiropractor (twice), acupuncturist and finally this afternoon, the GP, who has ordered total rest and put me on a swag of pain killers, anti inflammatories etc. I have virtually lost the use of my left hand/arm which is down to about 15% of its normal strength. Needless to say, this has made me even more bitter towards these stupid rules, as if the cage had been accepted, this wouldn't have happened!

Now 10pm and returning to a fully prone position, which is where I have been since 3pm and most of the last few days and sleepless nights... Sadly, it also means I won't now be trailering the car to HD to display (and to show Crunch and anyone else interested) and I now have up to six weeks of severely restricted movement to look forward to. Hopefully I will get to HD to take pics and say hi to a fair few people.

[markec]

Don't expect any sympathy from those from MSNZ Ray, one needs a conscience,sound social values, personal integraty, honesty along with empathy and other genuine human atributes to have feelings enough to offer condolances.

[John H]

Where is the best value for money to get a Holden fitted out with a complying roll cage in Auckland please?

[Paul Wilkinson]

Sorry guys, but I can't post much at the moment.

Whilst contorting my aged body last week, dealing to the front cage, to make sure it isn't there any more, I have severely twisted my back and I assume, dislodged a vertebra, trapping a nerve. I have spent more time at the emergency clinic, chiropractor (twice), acupuncturist and finally this afternoon, the GP, who has ordered total rest and put me on a swag of pain killers, anti inflammatories etc. I have virtually lost the use of my left hand/arm which is down to about 15% of its normal strength. Needless to say, this has made me even more bitter towards these stupid rules, as if the cage had been accepted, this wouldn't have happened!

Now 10pm and returning to a fully prone position, which is where I have been since 3pm and most of the last few days and sleepless nights... Sadly, it also means I won't now be trailering the car to HD to display (and to show Crunch and anyone else interested) and I now have up to six weeks of severely restricted movement to look forward to. Hopefully I will get to HD to take pics and say hi to a fair few people.

Sorry to hear about your back. Assuming you haven't moved in the last couple of years, I am just around the corner. If you've had to leave anything in a state you're not happy for it to remain for the next six weeks I am happy to pop 'round and tidy it away under your supervision.

[rf84]

There are a lot of anomalies in the regs. Our local car club had a competitor who had a "standard" road car (Subaru). It took many FTD's against cars such as a Porsche GT3. Because it was "standard" it was not required to have a roll cage of any sort (and, in addition, had only lap and diagonal road car belts). If the owner had installed a roll cage it would have made the car much safer in the event of a crash. But then he would have had all the hassles/expense of homologating the cage. Surely roll protection of any sort (approved or not) is safer than no roll protection at all?