Safety Issues

[Grant Ellwood]

Hopefully we can have plenty of positive discussion regarding how we can race our vehicles in period styling while taking advantage of improved safety features. For example, I'm looking for some sort of containment system to stop my legs flailing about in a rollover (for a saloon). I have permanent knee damage from crashing a Begg at Baypark years ago my legs hit the dash hoop very hard on the way over the bank. I was wearing a 6 point harness but that doesn't stop your pins flailing around!
Also there are medical issues for many of us as we slide into our sunshine years, I'm taking blood pressure meds and am interested to see some discussion on this subject. I knew a driver who used to stop taking his meds a few days before an event because they affected his concentration, then had a heart attack during a race.
Plenty to discuss especially continuing the rollbar and helmet subjects...

[Neville Milne]

An excellent subject for discussion.....especially as regards protetctive wear, but also as regards vehicle restoration and prep.
And of course..a big issue is that of expenses.........it IS costly to outfit oneself with appropriate ( approved) flame retardent coverings, a suitable skid-lid and assorted restraint devices.......not hundreds of $$ any-more..more like thousands of $$$.
What about vehicle hardware too......roll bars or cages CAN make an historic car look pretty woeful. Are they better than a life or a life spent disabled or in pain?
Ball-joints, tie-rod ends, axle studs ( lug-nuts ) and the like...all are critical to the safety of the competitor, but most importantly, they are equally critical to the safety of OTHER competitors.....and so we start down the slippery slope of historical (in)accuracy...do we 'improve' known weak-points or items that are known to be possible safety issues?...or do we trundle around in semi-'demonstration' mode?
My own dilemma concerns an early 60's British sports-car..mass -produced..and originally run at SCCA meetings; pro-rallied and then auto-crossed. The currently available BHP, is almost 75% greater than when it left the dealer's yard...so one might imagine that all of the items mentioned above, should be replaced as a matter of course..........and they have been. HOWEVER...when acquiring replacement suspension parts...for a car that's been out of production for almost 45years....how can one determine where they were made and to what standard?
It's all a bit of a challenge...bearing in mind that one has to take care of one's own safety and that of one's fellow competitors
Neville MILNE

[AMCO72]

Well there you go, I didn't get shot down after all!!! Lateral thinking is a great thing, and what started as an innocent comment on what 'looks right' has blossomed into a full blown discussion on safety at motoracing. Not only ours, the drivers, but everyone else who attends these meetings, where you 'ARE AT YOUR OWN RISK'. Maybe thats the attraction, risk. Life is so sanitised as Amerikiwi said, that a bit of adrenaline pumping is what we need. Now that this subject has expanded somewhat, I need to have a bit of a think, and one aspect of the sport is the medical side, of which I have had some issues, as regular readers will know. Have enjoyed all the comment so far, so stay tuned, there is more to come from everyone I'm sure.

[Oldfart]

Steve, are you reading this one? Can the discussion from Leadfoot topic which is more relevant here be moved over? Permission for mine is hereby given.
A few years back I tried to get Dunlop blue overalls remade. I even had fabric lined up, approval from Dunlop (they even supplied the appropriate artwork) but I couldn't find a person to do the short runs at a fair price. Then again when did overalls become a required item?
Perhaps if you run a 1930s Alfa you should be wearing a sleeveless pullover, or a flat hat on backwards in your Bugatti a la PhiPhi? Or if you run a Ford 10 white overalls, pudding basin and Kaydee sandals as in one of the pictures from Tahunanui a while back? (Oh and have a fag while you refuel, same photo)

[markec]

The last comments made in the "Leadfoot" thread is regarding the height of roll bars, my understanding was that they had to be 50mm above the helmet, in a line between the top of the rear bar and the top of the front hoop, normally situated about the front suspension pickup points.

[RogerH]

With rollbars in an historic car there is the issue of where to anchor them in a chassis that was never made to accommodate rollbars. A rollbar is only as good as it's weakest point.
In one of my cars (1960 single seater) the chassis is small diameter space frame tubing. We have looked to put a rollbar in but where it would be anchored is much smaller tubing than the rollbar itself - in a rollover the rollbar would punch through the chassis tubes.
The other issue is rollbar stays. In my car they can't go to the rear as the only thing they could anchor to is the fuel tank! A forward stay would likewise anchor onto a small diameter chassis tube.
I would also need to cut holes in the original alloy body to fit a rollbar which would destroy the originality of the car.
The conclusion was to either park the car and not use it or take the risk and hope nothing happens.

[Dave Silcock]

Go to historicparts.co.uk for your Dunlop overalls

[AMCO72]

Roger, I think your attitude of....'hope nothing happens' is the most sensible and is probably how we all feel. Pretty soon we will be required to put frames on our cars that look like the sort of thing you would find on a modified speedway machine. I have always though that airfield race-tracks encouraged sloppy driving,because there were large run-off areas before something solid was encountered. Street racing on the other-hand was the opposite, with solid walls very close to the action. So surely we drive/race with that in mind and....... 'hope nothing happens'.......don't we??????

[rogered]

With rollbars in an historic car there is the issue of where to anchor them in a chassis that was never made to accommodate rollbars. A rollbar is only as good as it's weakest point.
In one of my cars (1960 single seater) the chassis is small diameter space frame tubing. We have looked to put a rollbar in but where it would be anchored is much smaller tubing than the rollbar itself - in a rollover the rollbar would punch through the chassis tubes.
The other issue is rollbar stays. In my car they can't go to the rear as the only thing they could anchor to is the fuel tank! A forward stay would likewise anchor onto a small diameter chassis tube.
I would also need to cut holes in the original alloy body to fit a rollbar which would destroy the originality of the car.
The conclusion was to either park the car and not use it or take the risk and hope nothing happens.

You can now argue fairly strongly that the use of seatbelts would add to the chances of injury.

[RogerH]

You can now argue fairly strongly that the use of seatbelts would add to the chances of injury.

A good point and a dilemma for the driver.

MSNZ regulations state that for Sch K cars of pre 1960 era the use of a safety harness is not mandatory but recommended.

With the earlier single seaters (1940/50s) I wear a lap belt to stop being tossed around. In the 1960 single seater without a rollbar I wear a five point belt - when you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense ................

[Howard Wood]

What a fabulous subject!

For me, the rollcage question is obvious for saloons. Why would you not incorporate a modern roll cage with its attendant safety and torsional stiffness benefits? The cage does not detract from the visual lines of the car and the strength of a 40 odd year old shell will have become seriously compromised. Safely within my car for the period look I choose to wear an open face helmet.

My next project, rebuilding the Bob Wraight Chrysler beach racer from the late '20s, is at the other extreme. The fabric covered wooden bodywork offers no protection at all either from a roll over or side impact and short of a full "tractor safety frame" bolted outside of the chassis and body any protection would be useless and out of the question. The answer? Probably to treat driving it (complete with external contracting brakes) with some respect. I suspect the experience will be more like riding a motorbike and when (if ever) I finish it the helmet will definitely be full face.

Two extreme examples I know, but it seems there is no universal rule which can be applied retrospectively to bring period cars up to current safety specs.

[Michael Clark]

I recall seeing a full face helmet painted in such a way that one had to take a second look to see what was going on - the line of an open faced helmet was followed, and a spotted scarf to cover the 'mouth' was incorporated into the design.

It was pretty darn good.

[Howard Wood]

Michael,

With a Ray Harrou leather cap and goggles design on your helmet the transformation from Cossle 30F to Marmon Wasp is complete.

[Michael Clark]

32F

[Jac Mac]

I remember seeing a TV item of Peter Brock at the wheel of the Daytona Coupe he drove in the Aussie Targa events & thought at the time if he ever went sideways into something solid he would get a fair clout on the side of the helmet due to the proximity of the main roll cage hoop, many saloons need some more thought in this area, the TVR is a similar along with a couple of GT40 replicas I have looked at, in some cases they would be safer without the cage, the Hans device is responsible for a lot of the side by side collisions that lead to some of the high speed excursions we see a lot of today, drivers simply cannot or wont look in the mirrors due to the restricted movement.

[PaulieG]

I am having the same issue at the moment with the Lotus 20, it has a roll hoop, but it is nowhere near strong enouch to survive a serious roll over, as the diameter is about the same as spaghetti! What we will try and do is a double hoop over and following the contour of the original, with a rear wards stay. I have to say that while I understand that to some safety is of the utmost, but some of the modifications to roll hoops can ruin the look of a car, saying that,on youtube,(and maybe posted on here),the Lotus 18 rollover at Philip Island shows a strong case for arm restraints and roll over protection!check it out : http://youtu.be/GWPESLsUfb8

[Wal Will]

A few years apart, but with an open face helmet and no roll protection I rolled over a bank - and was only stopped from a long drop by a barbed wire fence (unfortunately some of it being under my chin). It is clear by the damage to the megaphone at the back, and the bodywork at the front that it landed upside down at some point of the accident. A bit the worse for wear I was still smiling.
When I see the car again it has grown some roll protection. It makes the car look weird to my eye, but I must confess that I would have been a bit better off (seat belt included) in the same scenario.
I said earlier that I felt I drove faster with roll protection, helmet, and belts on - and I think that that is just common sense kicking in. I drive a lot more agressively in my Star Car with a full cage and enclosed wheels, than I do in a Formula Ford - with its open wheels and potential to be catapulted.
The head of Ford at the time they were being forced against their will to fit seat belts as standard equipment, that yes it would reduce injury for a while, but then people would start to feel 'immune' and start taking more risks than they did 'before belts' and the rate would then rise again. Nowdays cars get 'written off' because of Air Bag issues?

[Wal Will]

I saw one painted to look like a man with a bald head Michael - and it made you look twice.

I recall seeing a full face helmet painted in such a way that one had to take a second look to see what was going on - the line of an open faced helmet was followed, and a spotted scarf to cover the 'mouth' was incorporated into the design.

It was pretty darn good.

[Michael Clark]

I remember!

[GeebeeNZ]

I concur with RogerH's comments about rollbars. A few years ago I fitted a rollbar to a Mallock Sports Car. Most of the Motorsport manual is all about fitting a rollbar to a sedan with a full floor, it doesnt offer a lot of help to someone who is trying to fit a rollbar to a car made out of something resembling 3/4 inch furniture tubing. Needless to say we did it but it wasnt easy.
Getting back to the pre 1945 cars that will be running at Hampton Downs on April 14th there is a school of thought that stiffening up the chassis of such cars by fitting rollbars greatly affects their handling characteristics as they were designed to flex. Any comments.