The State of NZ Motorsport.

[screwdriver]

The extent of keyboard pounding on display is truly “awesome” but inconsequential.

I am taking a special interest because the current situation mirrors problems I was involved with over fifty years ago when secretary of the Northern Sports Car Club, i.e. the attitude and performance of the governing body and most important the situation effecting individual members who directly finance that governing body.

MototSport NZ confines itself to a single constitutional obligation and that is towards member clubs, not in any way motor sportsmen as individuals. All member clubs have equal voting rights regardless of the number of individuals they represent. The government of N.Z. motor sport therefore is and always has been, undemocratic.

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

Sincerely, Trevor.

Spot on. What happened 50 years ago at a hillclimb is a reminiscence, (sorry Jim, but we could all recite examples of what it was like 50 years ago or name cars and drivers) but it is the administration that is undemocratic and until it either represents the drivers or offers genuine leadership (or both) we are lumbered.

Like any sports association that is a membership of clubs, individual preferences are channelled through one vote and whilst it may be fine when it comes to some issues, it is most definitely not fine when it comes to the day to day issues affecting thousands of paid up members who are seemingly powerless.

[jim short]

Now dont be sorry I agree with most of the concerns raised on here,but it is a bit like NZ today ,I went to school in the 40s and every day we were taught our times table and NZ history some how the 2nd race are now the 1st race and having a ball with our money,so what show have we got of changing manz when they only are getting peanuts,this is of topic so I will not mention it ,I would love to hear more stories of the old days racing and hillclimbs,some how it makes me a happer chap ,I have been imformed a lot or most of you dont like the sh?T I put on, but I get a chuckle sometimes hours later and no rum needed!!

[Racer Rog]

Democracy comes in many forms, more people voted against the National party than voted for it, but its the single party that had the most MP's voted in, that how that works, and in looking at what positions where up for election at the AGM, and the to see who was standing against them, I did not notice any names from those who feel aggrieved that there is no body from the the Northern reaches of our fair land, so I take it that all those up there are happy with the way things are being run? its all very well to write in forums such as this and others about what is happening in motor sport, and the sort of questions and problems being asked here, are also being asked in other countries about their ASN's, we are not really much different, from the SCCA or the RACMSA. Like many here I have had a life long addiction to motor sport, and this is a very common disease amongst the grey beard generation, but it starts to tapper off in the next generation and the one after that as well, and you find thats its the children and grand children of those involved in the sport that have the interest, reasons for this are varied and many, but the biggest is choice, there is more sport that people can get actively involved in now, some of my sons friends will prefer to spend their time playing games on a computer, than go and watch motor sport, he does not get that choice and has to come with me, and so he will be involved, and you will find that its families that play in motor sport that stay in motor sport, to a certain extent, although, I do know of some who could not give a toss what their old man does with his old cars, not interested. So to get back on track, to try and fix any perceived or real ill's of motor sport, people need to get off their soap box's and get involved, there are things in the sport that piss me off, but I make sure I get in the face of people to try and do something about it, most people writing on this thread are members of clubs, make sure they know of your concerns, and if they are not addressing these, or don't have an answer, vote them out, even if you don't win at least you can then say well I have had my say, and it has been recorded, and sometimes at a later date you can also say "well I told you so"
See you all at the AGM
Roger

[Trevor Sheffield]

Exactly Roger,

You have amplified my previous closing paragraph. ---

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

What is required is a block vote organised amongst clubs having a like agenda, in advance of an AGM and this requires time. Maybe next year.

Cheers, Trevor.

[RogerH]

Democracy comes in many forms, more people voted against the National party than voted for it, but its the single party that had the most MP's voted in, that how that works, and in looking at what positions where up for election at the AGM, and the to see who was standing against them, I did not notice any names from those who feel aggrieved that there is no body from the the Northern reaches of our fair land, so I take it that all those up there are happy with the way things are being run? its all very well to write in forums such as this and others about what is happening in motor sport,
Roger

Your point is valid Roger in that someone who criticises from the sidelines is open to a challenge of credibility if they haven't been prepared to put themselves forward in an attempt to resolve matters from within.
Most of the issues that have been raised in this thread and on other forums are hardly new issues - they have been raised both formally and informally over a few years. Prior to last year's AGM most of these issues were formally raised with MSNZ Executive and in an attempt to resolve matters from within, Tony Roberts put himself up for Executive and I put myself up for the Historic Commission - unfortunately we were both unsuccessful and the reasons could be varied dependant on whether you are a conspiracy theorist or not
As a result of concluding that braking into the established MSNZ hierarchy was going to be very difficult and that there didn't seem to be any real commitment from MSNZ Executive to change the status quo, the process of working through the remit process from outside seemed to be a democratic alternative (however, I bet there is a good chance that there will be an attempt to close down the subject remits at the AGM).
Unfortunately, there are some elements within MSNZ who think that if you dare criticise the establishment, you must be in league with the devil. They don't seem to understand that in most cases the criticism is constructive comment from people who care about motorsport and want to improve it.

[Racer Rog]

RogerH, some times the devil maybe on your side in regards to some issues, and you know you do have some support for some of them
Roger

[RogerH]

RogerH, some times the devil maybe on your side in regards to some issues, and you know you do have some support for some of them
Roger

Thanks Roger - it is good to know there is some support out there, and yes you are right - there are only "some elements within MSNZ" who have contrary views (unfortunately the ones who might entertain some changes are not the majority or the power brokers).
As long as don't lose sight of the fact that we mustn't let all these politics stop us enjoying competing in our historic and classic cars.

[AMCO72]

Racer Rog and RogerH, talking of enjoying our historic and classic cars, I want you two guys to get the eligability for classic racing in the VCC extended to pre 1965, then I will be able to get my old MG1300 back on the track, just like the old days. I think all the extra cars involved would fit in well with oldfarts proposed class. It really bought it home to me, when at the Roycroft Trophy I was able to do a few laps in the old girl with my 92 year old passenger from the rest home. I might end up in a rest-home myself one day and be riding around with some 'wet behind the ears' classic race car driver, and I would sooner be driving myself!!! And just a question.....is a medical required for racing with the VCC.

[Racer Rog]

It will be a cold day in hell, when the VCC gets to extend out to 1965, down here they can not police their own current fleet, with out going to 1965, I do understand that the Roycroft meeting where they ran, was well run and a credit to the VCC, the North Islanders do get some things right, as for oldfarts racing, no such thing, I have never seen an old fart racing yet, seen zimmer frames beside a couple of race cars, but when watching them on the track, it would appear that they were just sandbaging!
Roger

[GeebeeNZ]

For the majority of us who werent there can anyone give us a report on the remits from yesterdays Motorsport Annual General Council Meeting

[markec]

With attitudes like Racer Rog has,its no wonder Motorsport in NZ is in the quagmire it now is. Absolutely no tolerance to another body having any control over what the members of that body wish to do or the direction that they wish to take. When the classic movement started to take off back in the 90's, there were cars appearing that had been left in sheds for years, after a few meetings the numbers of the original competitors started to dwindle with these cars going back into their sheds, officialdom started making things too hard.Every time there has been a successful form of competition that brings back enthusiasts to the sport officialdom gets in the way. The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors.

[RogerH]

There has been a similar request on another forum:

What I am asking is that those who are able to attend, spend a couple of minutes to pass on some info as to what went on, as most minutes manage to be less than a comprehensive record. Items may well be passed, but we often don't hear how close a vote was or both sides of the debate, as many votes are far from unanimous.

In response I posted the following which may help :

"I don't know what the problem is in communicating what happened at the MSNZ Conference - it wasn't secret. In fact one of the issues that was discussed was the need to use more social media as the means for communicating with competitors and I suppose these forums are part of the social media as it appears a significant number of competitors frequent these forums.

The workshops this year were run in a manner that they did not conflict with other workshops so there was the ability to attend any workshop that was relevant. As a result there was a huge increase of attendance at the finance workshop which perhaps indicates people are concerned about the costs and financial performance of MSNZ and it's majority owned promotional company TMC (recently rebranded MPS). In fact, there was a motion passed at Council that in future the financial workshop meeting notes be minuted to ensure the issues raised were formally recorded.

At Council, there was strong questioning of the CEO of TMC and it was clear there were two camps - one which was dissatisfied with TMC and the other which considered the criticism was just "bagging". The outcome was that TMC was to be reviewed again in a years time in order for the new directors to have a chance to turn things around.

The remits regarding MSNZ exiting TMC, proxy voting and representation were all defeated - primarily as the close off date for remits meant that any Constitutional remit was outside the required notice time limit and was therefore invalid.

The big issue was the remit and discussion on MSNZ governance. This remit called for an independent panel to review the governance of MSNZ to ensure it is meeting the needs of the sport. The remit noted that there had been significant changes in a number of NZ sporting bodies in recent years with a swing towards governance by an appointed board. This remit was passed by what appeared to be a significant majority.

I have tried to give a balanced view of what happened but these forums provide the opportunity for anyone to have input if they have a different perspective."

[Kiwiboss]

I was there for the first time as an observer for HRC, most of the main Teir 1 motorsport questioning was new to me though i did understand what was going on, it seem to be a big game of chess!! i guess!!

Offcourse my main interest is in the Historic and Classic commission which i got to sit in on their friday workshop and as they all knew about the implementing of HMC under myself, Steve and Tony i was asked many questions about this, been alighthened to MSNZ T&C does rules help, and also some discussion about T&C and COD's. It seems to me the H&C part of motorsport is the least of MSNZ's worries!! but never lest i have been invided to there next workshop in a months time and will see how it goes from there.

I also spoke with several South Island classic clubs and event organisers and it seems they have quite some interest in alighning the classic Saloon groups, all positive i thought.

Dale M

[Russ Cunningham]

With attitudes like Racer Rog has,its no wonder Motorsport in NZ is in the quagmire it now is. Absolutely no tolerance to another body having any control over what the members of that body wish to do or the direction that they wish to take. When the classic movement started to take off back in the 90's, there were cars appearing that had been left in sheds for years, after a few meetings the numbers of the original competitors started to dwindle with these cars going back into their sheds, officialdom started making things too hard.Every time there has been a successful form of competition that brings back enthusiasts to the sport officialdom gets in the way. The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors.

Your last sentence sums things up nicely! Try racing, Kerry Cooper! I hope you enjoy the red tape and bullshit put in your way. Don't worry about the costs though, we'll pay those.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Your last sentence sums things up nicely! Try racing, Kerry Cooper! I hope you enjoy the red tape and bullshit put in your way. Don't worry about the costs though, we'll pay those.

Here it is again ----- "The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors."

I go way back and it has always been the same. Self centered decisions made by the power hungry and ego driven with no experience of reality. Only capable of thumping a gavel rather than a spanner, and unable to steer anything much less an organisation along the lines required by competitors..

[crunch]

Here it is again ----- "The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors."

I go way back and it has always been the same. Self centered decisions made by the power hungry and ego driven with no experience of reality. Only capable of thumping a gavel rather than a spanner, and unable to steer anything much less an organisation along the lines required by competitors..

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

[RogerH]

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

Crunch, In your capacity as MSNZ Vice-President representing Historic and Classic, maybe you could have a look at the David Silcock Jaguars thread on this forum and read posts #206 to #217. It seems that the MSNZ "system" is resulting in a fantastic historic car being kept off the track - hopefully you can do something. Cheers Roger.

[crunch]

Crunch, In your capacity as MSNZ Vice-President representing Historic and Classic, maybe you could have a look at the David Silcock Jaguars thread on this forum and read posts #206 to #217. It seems that the MSNZ "system" is resulting in a fantastic historic car being kept off the track - hopefully you can do something. Cheers Roger.

Yep, will do.
I have just got home from AGCM this afternoon and am off tomorrow afternoon to the Otago Rally; so wont be able to promise anything until after weekend coming

[Carlo]

I am sure David will correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand from my readings here is that he started the project a few years ago and during that time built the roll cage to the then current specification. By the time that the car was completed time had passed and the requirements had changed to that which is the current FIA specification relating to the diameter of the main roll cage hoop and because of that, his cage was no longer eligble.

I got caught out the other way in that I built my replica RS2000 rally car to the then current specification only to find out that it had changed internationally to the new specification and my thoughts of taking the car overseas to compete have now been dashed as I am not going to cut half the car apart so as to make the changes required to fit in the larger diameter tubing

For sure It would have been nice to know that there was a change in the wind when I could have done something about it but I guess we can not all be mind readers and I suspect that the same could be said for those in the MSNZ office

[Carlo]

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

The advisory commissions are stacked with current & former competitors across all aspects of the sport. The fact that many of them also organise events is just a by-product of their enthusiasm for the sport