MSNZ Organisational Review

[RogerH]

There is a general disappointment in the review report.
A lot of the report seems to be muddled thinking with not many changes to the present structure. This would stem from the fact that the panel was extensively briefed by MSNZ staff and the President, so the panels outlook will be consistent with the thoughts and ideas of the present MSNZ establishment. There are certainly no radical changes mooted and if the panel stays on this course it will be totally ineffective.
It is folly toretain the present club voting system, even if changed to proportional voting. It should be one vote per race licence holderer/licensed volunteer and special interest people. The whole board should be voted on, rather than have unelected board members. Unelected board members are like list MP's, of doubtful ethics and competence.

Historic and Classic racing is obviously not wanted by MSNZ, with the report advocating get rid of the commission. Why not just set up a separate motorsport classification for Historic and Classic along the lines of Speedway and Drag Racing? let them manage there own affairs broadly under the umbrella of MSNZ, but running their own show completely.

I think it is pretty clear from a number of things that the majority of the MSNZ Executive and management structure have little affinity or time for the Historic and Classic fraternity. This is despite H&C evidently holding around 40% of the competition licences and the largest motor sport meeting in NZ being an H&C meeting (the NZ Festival at Hampton Downs).

In addition, the current disquiet with MSNZ's commercial interests in promoting the "pinnacle" of the sport through Tier 1 and the now insolvent TMC/MPL does nothing for the H&C community except load them with extra costs. Clearly, with the proposed dropping of the H&C Commission, MSNZ is signalling that it thinks that H&C doesn't comfortably fit with their view of the makeup of motor sport. Maybe it is now time to consider alternatives for the H&C community as RacerT has suggested.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Cant you all just work in together,i would like to take this time to say to all who went through the storm in auckland today, i hope they dont piss around with you all and get in there now and fix the houses up ,all the best to you all.

[crunch]

[QUOTE=CUSTAXIE50;21492]Cant you all just work in together

Yes, we should be able to, but there are some who will never be happy unless they are running the ship. So by all means if a group think they can do it better outside the umbrella, maybe they could try. However if the FIA delegated ASN (MSNZ) refuses to recognise the body, then many aspects come into play. Kartsport and Drag Racing are delegated the authority to run thier own branch of the sport on behalf of MSNZ, and as long as MSNZ is happy with the way that is happening, all is good. However; that delegation can be withdrawn or not given. Speedway are under the FIM not FIA.

If a seperate group is started and MSNZ does not delegate the authority then it will become messy. I'm tired of various aspects of the sport ending up in court because people cant get thier own way, it would be best if it was a unified body.

MSNZ did NOT brief the Review group as stated elsewhere, that is not a factual statement. MSNZ does want the H&C side of the sport, and if the rumour mongers had bothered to ask, they would have been told that MSNZ is not signalling anything Roger, it is the Review groups suggestion.

And Roger, continuing the argument regarding the TMC/MPL scenario on this thread which is about a Constitutional Review, is just mudding the waters. The H&C competitor will not be shouldering any extra fee or levy as a result of this, yet you seem to continue to insinuate this. I have told you this and I'm sure its on the minutes at Conference that the President said this.

I would appreciate it if the discussion on this thread remains about the review. There is plenty of other internet space available to talk of the other stuff happening....

[RacerT]

Hi Crunch

I would say that MSNZ is the one that's not happy unless it is running the ship. The report states that MSNZ should control everything to do with Motorsport and be the key organisation in all things Motorsport. Is there not a hint of meglamania in there?

In answer to your third paragraph. the report states;

"The panel was further provided with a comprehensive background from MSNZ President Shayne Harris while Brian Budd and Sporting Manager Bill Bawn also assisted in providing background information."

Does background information not constitute a briefing?

A unified body with integrity and transparency is all that is asked for.

[RogerH]

Crunch, don't you think it is strange that for whatever reason the review panel (that included the President of MSNZ) got the message (possibly from the "comprehensive background" provided by MSNZ's Shayne, Brian and Bill) that the H&C Commission could be dispensed with? I doubt that any club would have put in a submission that the H&C Commission be dropped so there is perhaps some credibility in the suggestion that it came from within MSNZ?
This proposal doesn't seem consistent with just splitting things into rally and race as the Clubsport Commission is proposed to be retained. It does seem hard to interpret the proposal in any way other than the H&C fraternity is thought to be either unimportant or less important - and this must be of concern for H&C competitors.

[Carlo]

For some time now I have thought that our historic competitors have been dissadvantaged because of having a historic commission in place and my reasons for that are quite simple, with racing it does not matter what class of make of car one uses, the rules and regulations are all the same and if there is something that dissadvantages the historic competitor than that should be resolved as an overall race issue rather than "It only effects old cars" so leave it to the historic guys. With Historic rallying currently, we are fortunate in that all of the rally commission have some very strong roots that is able to assist the historic side of this aspect of the sport develop however I do think that we have an issue that exists with clubsport similar to racing where historic input into the structure and types of events that could be catered for to the benefit of eveyone is sorely missed.

Maybe as we look to the future there should be a recognised historic type person elected or appointed to those three commissions and as a result they all become the the historic commission as we know it but with far more effect on the overall conduct of their sector of the sport that they currently enjoy by working through the more direct process that affects that particular sector of the sport.

For sure, Historic motorsport is not just about race cars to the exclusion of everything else and perhaps a view of the bigger picture is in order

[CUSTAXIE50]

Now Crunch, i did not know that you, are running this ship.

[rf84]

Why is it that MSNZ feel obligated to control all forms of sport involving motor cars? The controlling body of tennis for instance do not try to administer any sport that uses a racquet just as the administrators of swimming do not insist on controlling any sport played in or on water. By trying to administer all forms of the sport involving cars MSNZ appear to be stretching their own resources, sometimes to the detriment of some branches of the sport. I would have thought that some devolution of their authority would have been a logical move, not more concentration of power in a smaller group as this review is proposing.

[RogerH]

Surely what is good for motor sport in general and for the components of the sport must be the prime motivation of MSNZ (I think there is something along these lines in the MSNZ Constitution). If the Historic and Classic component of the sport can flourish more effectively as a separate sub-group (along the lines of karts, speedway and drags as RacerT suggested) then MSNZ should encourage this as being good for the sport. Trying to control everything just for the sake of it does have the aroma of megalomania.

[ERC]

I think that by us running effectively to FIA, MSNZ are the FIA conduit for NZ. That is not to say that independent groups could not still run via MSNZ.

It is a bit like my personal view of some aspects of the commissions. They only need to create the broad umbrella and not get too bogged down with minor details that can be far better addressed at race organisation, club or series level.

The most successful companies delegate authority and responsibility, but still retain a watching brief. The worst are where the owner continues to try and do everything as the company grows, instead of concentrating on strategy and growth.

[Racer Rog]

I always thought that MSNZ was there to just what several people have suggested, looking after the admin, safety, general rules, and that the commissions were there to govern (guide) their sector of the sport, race, rally, clubsport, and H & C, who were there to put to the exce, their findings etc to be signed off. Carl, you are right in some aspects of what you are saying, in that the Race Commission has a lot to do with H & C, but only in terms of the rules of the road so to speak, competitor rules, if H & C was not there, it would be a all comers, or hotrod racing, H & C has become very popular, as everybody harks back to their youth and what seems better times in racing, but has also become a very complex beast. I agree that the majority of the Excutive have little understanding, and no time for H & C, and Crunch has come under a lot of pressure in this area, to justify what we do as a Commission, and for calling it as it is, and I can only urge all clubs to use this in voteing, in fact urge all clubs that have an interest in H & C to get vocal on this.
The argument about the commercial interests of motorsport, has been put to bed, and in the event of this comeing back to bite us in the arse, there will be a public hanging at the next AGCM, so we should not get to bogged down in this, or we won't get anywhere, but already in this thread there are good responses to the questions, but also agree that there is very little time to respond, to what is a very poor report.
Roger

[CUSTAXIE50]

No one is going to win in the end,You have a large number of people like Michael Laws in there.

[RacerT]

One other concerning area in the report (Page 3) is that the board believes that MSNZ must control the commercial aspects of the sport and that the MSNZ Championships remain as the pinnacle of the sport. This obviously raises the issue of MSNZ being involved in promotion again and how does this attitude work with a series like V8SuperTourers being already established?

[Oldfart]

I just came across this paragraph written quite a few years back.
"It could be argued that governors of motorsport are purists, enamoured with the concept that fine racing machinery is reward enough for fans to get along to a track. On the other hand there's an alternative view that officials are so beholden to circuiot owners that they'd better stay out of promotion altogether".
The only real change in my opinion, is that the "governors" have stopped that role and become, in their own eyes, the promoters and that no-one else deserves to have a view.

[Bruce Sollitt]

However if the FIA delegated ASN (MSNZ) refuses to recognise the body, then many aspects come into play. Kartsport and Drag Racing are delegated the authority to run thier own branch of the sport on behalf of MSNZ, and as long as MSNZ is happy with the way that is happening, all is good. However; that delegation can be withdrawn or not given. Speedway are under the FIM not FIA.
If a seperate group is started and MSNZ does not delegate the authority then it will become messy. I'm tired of various aspects of the sport ending up in court because people cant get thier own way, it would be best if it was a unified body.

MSNZ have jurisdiction only over events run under their permits. If the Karting or Drag racing people wished to break away and do their own thing, there is nothing MSNZ could do about it, as would be the case with any other code within motorsport. Neither the FIA nor MSNZ are the definitive authority on motorsport matters, and neither do they hold any rights in respect of IP, and it's past due time that they realised that. The report recommends MSNZ focus on cementing themselves in that dominant role. They would do far better to focus on listening to, and providing, their member clubs and licence holders with an accessible and affordable sport matching their wants and needs. In doing this they would build a strong, stable and vibrant organisation that other factions would want to join.

MSNZ did NOT brief the Review group

No they didn't. Neither did anyone else outside of a couple of staff. Three & a half pages constitutes a review and recommendations of the governence model of one of the country's largest and most complex sporting organisations? This is barely an afternoon's work and, if this was all that was anticipated, it could have been completed months earlier allowing more time for submissions and composing of final recommendations. It reeks of having been set up to fail from the outset.

And Roger, continuing the argument regarding the TMC/MPL scenario on this thread which is about a Constitutional Review, is just mudding the waters. The H&C competitor will not be shouldering any extra fee or levy as a result of this, yet you seem to continue to insinuate this. I have told you this and I'm sure its on the minutes at Conference that the President said this.

You are correct, this is not the thread to discuss this matter however your comment warrants a reply. Whilst there may be no liability for MSNZ in making good TMC's losses, it is undeniable that this debacle has altered the financial position of MSNZ. An acknowledgement to that effect would likely go a long way to quelling the masses.

[CUSTAXIE50]

MSNZ what control do they have over the tracks in nz ,do they have a say in what you can run.

[RogerH]

MSNZ have jurisdiction only over events run under their permits. If the Karting or Drag racing people wished to break away and do their own thing, there is nothing MSNZ could do about it, as would be the case with any other code within motorsport. Neither the FIA nor MSNZ are the definitive authority on motorsport matters, and neither do they hold any rights in respect of IP, and it's past due time that they realised that. The report recommends MSNZ focus on cementing themselves in that dominant role. They would do far better to focus on listening to, and providing, their member clubs and licence holders with an accessible and affordable sport matching their wants and needs. In doing this they would build a strong, stable and vibrant organisation that other factions would want to join.

No they didn't. Neither did anyone else outside of a couple of staff. Three & a half pages constitutes a review and recommendations of the governence model of one of the country's largest and most complex sporting organisations? This is barely an afternoon's work and, if this was all that was anticipated, it could have been completed months earlier allowing more time for submissions and composing of final recommendations. It reeks of having been set up to fail from the outset.

You are correct, this is not the thread to discuss this matter however your comment warrants a reply. Whilst there may be no liability for MSNZ in making good TMC's losses, it is undeniable that this debacle has altered the financial position of MSNZ. An acknowledgement to that effect would likely go a long way to quelling the masses.

Well said Bruce.

[ERC]

MSNZ what control do they have over the tracks in nz ,do they have a say in what you can run.

None - but, should any track elect to host an outlaw event or events, do you really think they would then get a Tier 1 date or any MSNZ Permitted events? I am not sure of the legal requirements but risk insurance I presume would be required.

The original plans for the Cromwell track were that it would run independently and would not require anything from MSNZ and would not host MSNZ events. I am not sure that with the change of ownership, that things have changed or not. Someone based down that way would be more up to date on that.

Seems that the South Island has a fair few good tracks already and maybe running privately wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Agree with above. Good post Bruce.

[Russ Cunningham]

No one is going to win in the end,You have a large number of people like Michael Laws in there.

Once again you've lost me......???? Michael Laws???????? what the hell?????????

There's a good deal of commonsense being voiced on this thread......Join the club! Norm.

[RogerH]

I have always struggled with the concept that MSNZ "control" motor sport in NZ. They would perhaps like to control it but from a legal perspective they can't control it.
There was a similar situation in Australia a few years back where a track owner and competitors had enough of CAMS and gave them "two fingers". CAMS threatened them with all sorts of reprisals which came to nothing and they broke away and set up their own structure AASA (http://australianautosportalliance.com/). They have arranged their own insurance cover and the costs of licences, permits and log books are a fraction of what CAMS charges.