True Carlo but been outta date with what LTSA say's doesn't matter as this is a ruling for "Motorsport car racing" and is currently in the MSNZ manual so nothing needs changing just enforcement so Ray may as well use this!! also this helps alight ERC and Arrows to MSNZ and the H&C commission which Ray is eager to do so is gotta be good for old car racing! true?Originally Posted by Carlo
Dale M
I am still wondering why this is an issue? Let people run anything, no need to complicate things. They shouldn't be changing tyres and breaking out from the official times for handicaps.
"Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used."
So either you need to remove these words or update the definition within the motorsport regulations
Not me Carlo, im just quoting whats currently written as a rule about tyres under the T&C section of the MSNZ manual!! wording seems pretty clear to me?
CobraV8, look some will do anything and its worst if they can afford it!! you could have a 1:10.00 vehicle around Hampton that has onboard lap timing system so he can just stay ahead of those behind him but not fast enough to break out!! CRAZY sure!! but someone will do it? still Rays handicapping will sort him out anyway(correct Ray) just put them back even further!!
Interesting
Dale M
Dale M
I guess the guys that have loads of money will just buy the best legal tyres and run them with as little tread as they can. The only people I see this affecting are those that have racy road tyres and don't want to have to change them because of new rules when they can't afford unnecessary expense.
Under T&C regs you are allowed to go 1 inch bigger...plenty of 15" choice of rubber round things around
I was aware of that Crunch. I last ran the car 6-7 years ago and bringing it out this year after a long layoff I find that for my 14x6.5 inch GTA replicas, tyres are there but are difficult to source. Most the guys down here running 105s, 116s etc apart from 2 others have upgraded to 15 inch rims.
I am faced with that as well and have made the decision to go to 15 inch Revolutions to keep the period look correct.
My point was that the smaller size wheels the tyre choice is limited.
Correct Crunch, but many 1960's/70's cars, including mine, were on 13" rims and at 14", have already gone up to maximum allowed.
Correct Dale. Drivers who have transgressed get their handicap 'adjusted'! Not very often maybe, but although some believe that the fastest car should always win, I don't, and spreading the chocolate fish around creates a far better attitude than knowing who will win.
If someone askes 'How' they can win the series, there are two responses.
1) Why do you want to know? or,
2) Turn up at every meeting, drive sensibly and finish every race - but you may never actually win a race.
It really is as simply as that.
Dale is also correct in that some drivers are using various modern devices to moderate their speed, but the vagaries of handicap racing are that if for whatever reason you lose a couple of seconds on one lap, as in life generally, you can't get it back.
Some drivers amaze me by their ability to get through traffic so easily and safely and they manage to finish quite high in the results. They are usually the ones who have a certain amount of 'excess power' and can shoot past, but those with a lot less power have to bide their time. Part of the fine tuning of the handicap system takes that into account. Some races turn out to favour the slower cars and some favour the faster cars. Who cares?
So long as everyone is
Love supporting/watching and come Ice Breaker racing in the ERC group keep up the great work.
Mike L
Tire Lesson 102 - Manufacturers can only afford to produce tires in a range of diameters that they hope will sell in volume. As the performance level of road cars has improved then the diameter of wheels has increased ( larger brakes ) and the profile of tires has reduced ( 70,65,60,55,50,45,40,35 etc ) One can only assume that when the T & C rules were set up ( 1970’s ? ) they made allowance for the then gradual increase in Tire diameters 13” to 14” and 15” to 16” that the availability of suitable tires dictated. For us greybeards in 2014, to still be expecting to purchase performance street tires in 13 to 16 diameters when the manufacturers have moved on to 17” to 20 “ production is getting to be fairly futile. This situation is very bad now and only going to get a whole lot worse.
Yes, there are a few manufacturers still producing reasonable performance tires in small widths for 13 to 16 “ rims and some still making ‘cheater type’ tires but to find larger width, performance street tires in these sizes, is like finding the rocking horse doo doo.
Maybe it’s time for a re - look at tire diameters under the T & C rules . Auckland based Production Muscle Cars class don’t allow Willwood brakes, Dry sump engines, Yeriko Gearboxs etc but have made allowance for larger diameter wheels to cater for readily available street legal tires !
p.s.. Hey Ray, what’s this “tyres “ language ? Here was me thinking you spoke the Queens English !
Tyres IS the English spelling!!! Tires is the US spelling.
Geez, that was quick !
One soon tires of this tyre discussion. Does that make it easier to understand the four letter words parnelli
Yup. And before my first large, strong, sweet coffee of the day too! No, not a tea drinker either - but you knew that...
Racing a production based car is compromise be it a new or a classic. Given we are talking Classic cars then rim size is a compromise and as pointed out so is tyre choice due to availability in today's world.
Mike L
Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.
Correct 15" rims on a standard body Escort (aka T&C compliant) is almost impossible hence so many Forest Flares on these types of cars so they car run a 225/50/15 - however as I understand the rules with Forest Flares that means Schedule K which does not have a 50 percent aspect ratio but a 60 percent aspect ratio for DOT tyres - or period correct tyre required. Under FIA Appendix K which MSNZ Schedule K is based Escorts with Forest Flares are limited to 13" rims anyway.Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.
This is one of the points that keeps running through my mind - T&C = 50 series tyres = I can run a 225/50/15 or even a 235/50/15 on my Datsun 260z. Or I go Schedule K, which allows me to run Group 4 type flares and wide rims - 15x12 in the rear in period but only period rubber and that is going to be big $$ for someone with a small budget for this hobby that is not going to happen - so I don't flare run stock body work and DOT tyre that needs to be 60 series for Schedule K so I am down to 205/60/15 (same diameter as the stock tyre for a 260z which is 195/70/14) or slightly larger 215/60/15 or 225/60/15 - which you can't get a track tyre in those sizes, just high performance road rubber.
However I guess that is the point of all this is it not? Road tyres or period spec tyres - no semi slick track only tyres.
There is a silver lining for us lower budget guys is that road tyres are general a lower price than the higher performance semi-slick. You get what you pay for. I will never have the budget to be at the pointy end of the field, so if that means I run a standard road tyre and be mid/rear of the pack that is fine that is where my pay grade has me playing. So long as there are others in the same boat and we can have a good bit of fun along the way + with the odd handicap there might be a chance of getting to the checkered flag first just to make the simile a little wider once in a while.
Last edited by nzeder; 04-04-2014 at 01:58 AM.
Mike L
Er, winning a handicap once in a while? H'mm. Generally once every few seasons maybe. Wide smiles frequently though, oh yes!
Will be sending the dinner bookings email out shortly, now that I have just confirmed the price with the caterers. Numbers starting to roll in for the April 20th (Easter Sunday) practice day too via HD ticketing (not motorsport entry) website. Within the first few, were two Z's... Just a reminder that the practice day is not limited to ERC drivers.
Lol maybe should clarify my term once and a while. I am in my early 40's so I guess I have 20+ years in the sport (I hope, wish, dream) so once in a while is as you say while = few years. Looking forward to the dinner.
Might have to see if I can share a drive
Mike L
Make that 30 years. We still have one or two over 70's racing. Plenty of time yet Mike. You can even wear your Z gear at the dinner, as the theme this year is "Marque". Anyone turning up with Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda gear, buys everyone else a drink.
The "Ford Mustang" wearers, may have to provide chocolate fish - but we haven't decided on that one just yet.
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