New Zealand's premier race series.

[Allan]

After watching the V8 supertourers on TV3 yesterday (because for family reasons I couldn't make it) I began to wonder which of the supposedly "top end" series being run in this country is considered to be our "Premier" series. Many years ago when I first started watching and taking an interest, single seaters were all the go and continued to be so into the 70s.
What is the answer to a one make series (you can call them what you like but they are all the same under the skin) that fronts with only 8 of the 20 or so cars that exist?
Is the motor race sponsorship dollar being stretched to it absolute limits meaning that more of these cars stayed in their sheds rather than coming out to play?
And will the various groups who run these V8 series ever get together long enough to sort out there differences and put on a show that the punters will be happy to pay to see? Which individual or group holds the key to all this?
I am fortunate to be old enough to remember the very good old days when people helped out at race meetings where all the officials performed their tasks for the love of the sport. I well remember lap scoring at a number of Benson and Hedges meetings because I enjoyed it but also because when I wasn't calling out car numbers as they rushed past at the Elbow I had the best seat in the house.
Allan Cameron

[928]

a simple formula such as
no body mods above a line drawn through the wheel centres
safety equipment
race it

should do the trick

[Allan]

Isn't that called 2Kcup?

[CUSTAXIE50]

What a Joke it was on sunday,a load of crap.

[paul lancaster]

Hi allan, I had the pleasure of commentating at the weekend at levels raceway in timaru, where the 2kcup was featuring.at their first round, back in october, there were 38 cars that lined up on the grid, of these 38,31 of them had never raced before.yesterday, there were 54 cars that competed, albeit, run in 2 heats.there are another 10-12 cars not far off joining in, as well as people enquiring about how to get involved, all weekend.the racing was brilliant, only a couple of spinners, no panel damage, and everyone is having a ball, with none of the bullshit, that I have seen go on, in plenty of other classes, and very cheap to get involved.i also wonder what is our premier race series at present.
nzv8s, formula ford?, I dont know, but with only a few cars on the grid, I dont think v8st deserve to be called our premier race series.i think one needs to look back in time, and by that, I mean the classic racing scene of the past 10 odd years.the southern festival of speed is due to get underway down here, and the numbers through all the classes are jam packed,but if your after a class to call a premier series, you probably couldnt beat the formula 5000s.big numbers, and big noise, which the fans love, or the toyota racing series, not being biased, as im a single seater man,anyhow, like everybody else that has avgas in their veins, ill watch any sort of motorsport,I just hope we do see more v8st on the grid, as 5 or 6 car fields, arent much fun for anyone to watch, let alone commentate!

[Allan]

Thanks for your reply Paul. I am watching the 2Kcup here in the north and love the enthusiasm of the newest competitors. I have only one fear for the series and that is that a serious accident occurs and that new and expensive rules to control safety will be dumped on the competitors and organizers which will have the effect of putting the price of what is a fun series out of reach of those who would love to get involved.
At the Ganley festival I thought that some of the smaller single seater fields could have been combined to provide a better spectacle.
Allan

[ERC]

I have only one fear for the series and that is that a serious accident occurs and that new and expensive rules to control safety will be dumped on the competitors and organizers which will have the effect of putting the price of what is a fun series out of reach of those who would love to get involved.

My fear too Allan, and not just for U2K. It also apples to other grids. We had 6 full grids for the Ganley Festival and roll protection is optional in the slower of our two classes, but we did make harness belts compulsory for all, as unlike cages, they do not wreck a classic car.

There have been deaths in cars fitted with full roll protection as motorsport is dangerous, but counting the number of car laps by U2K cup or any other non-caged cars will show that the risks are still minimal. Forty cars doing a 10 lap race is 400 laps. Super Tourers with 4 cars doing 15 laps is only 60.

Premier class or classes? We wouldn't get a large field of F5000's running throughout the whole season, but maybe there is an opportunity for a modern day F5000 type class running stock V8's as a premier class?

The most critical part of the premier class or classes is that they should NOT be a group of 100% identical cars.

At least one class needs to have enough noise speed and attitude to be worth watching and a minimum of 20 cars on the grid, maybe even 25. Anything less is a waste of decent track space. Attitude? Most people say they enjoy the Muscle Cars because they have attitude, something Super Tourers or other modern V8 saloons do not have.

Combining classes? Every time for me, but sadly, there are some who refuse to run in a combined race citing speed differentials as a problem. They think that 7 or 8 cars is OK as a race but it is an attitude I cannot understand. There are several mechanisms for running different classes together but when drivers simply refuse, they only have themselves to blame if organisers drop their class in favour of better grids.

Anything less than 15 cars on a grid is a loss maker for the organisers and also drives away supporters and even flaggies. If you are expecting a flaggie to stand out in all weathers from 8:30am to 5:30pm for the whole weekend, then the fastest way to drive them away is to have small grids. Would I volunteer to flag at Super Tourers or other NZ V8 classes today? No way.

[928]

what? a CRX with a chev v8 in it, looking standard. me thinks not

[Allan]

Thanks for your reply Ray. And thanks for letting us run the FIAT in your class at Taupo. I think Ross's intention is to run in both the Alfa and ERC series. Our driveshaft problem has been addressed and we are ready to go again.
For some time now I have thought long and hard about the problem of small fields. If there is an answer I don't have it. I think the main issue is value for money for the competitor or as some would put it "bang for buck". I know that there are many cars lying idle in sheds all over the country because the total cost of competing has become more than the owner can afford. In some cases a change in regulations have meant that money has to be spent to bring the car up to a newer standard which the owner cannot afford. One of the greatest problems is that while many of these cars are for sale the asking price is way more than what the car is realistically worth or what some other person is willing to pay. The stupid part of this equation is that as anyone who has been involved in motorsport for any length of time it is not possible to build these cars for what is being asked for them.
I totally agree that any premier class should not be made up of 100% identical cars. I also think that classes like the Aussie V8 supercars have gone to far away from the original concept and that they are basically a silhouette of what that are suposed to be. This is why classes like yours and HMC are doing so well and attracting competitors. That is because they are real cars modified to suit their application and not some space frame with some manufacturer's panels trimmed to fit and attached to the outside.
In my opinion one of the best classes was group A. Real cars from real manufacturers modified to race but still retaining the original identity and appearing to Joe Public like the car they own and drive.
Maybe what the world of motorsport needs is a modern version of group A with a set of regulation that are universal worldwide.

[ERC]

No such thing as small fields in U2K Cup, BMW E30's and BMW Open, AES & Arrow Wheels, Alfa Trofeo. None of these could ever be considered a 'Premier Class'. Apart from the front runners in the BMW open, all would be in the 'affordable' category and are effectively road cars, not race cars.

A Premier class (as opposed to a Tier 1 meeting) should be for what most would consider race cars, be they race saloons, single seaters or exotics such as GT's.

A Tier 1 meeting need not be exclusive to premier classes, but they can represent the balance to make a programme varied and interesting. As a series, Tier 1 needs to differentiate between those top classes that appear at all or most events and other well supported classes at the whim of the local organisers.

Geographically, NZ is not ideal for more than a very small number of National Classes (cost and time prohibitive) therefore by default, we have Island based championships and further down the scale, regional.

Our own is Pukekohe and Hampton Downs based (regional), with just one Taupo event. Others are Manfeild and Taupo based (regional) but any NI series that includes all four tracks becomes Island based, but straightaway, the costs rise. No doubt the same applies in the South Island given the distances between the tracks.

We pulled out of Manfeild purely on the grounds of costs and time to our competitors.

I may be being very simplistic here but there are many factors to be taken into account when setting up any series, whether that be Tier 1 or at Club level. Get it right and it works. Get it wrong and it falls over (or needs putting to sleep...). That part isn't so very complicated but some seem to overlook the very basics.

[Spgeti]

Well said Ray.
I attended last years NZGP meeting at Manfeild. Apart from the TRS...23 cars on the grid the next best group were the Pro7's with MX5's added in....43 cars in all on the grid and as you stated gives variety.
I was disappointed with the Toyota AE86 grid...8 cars in my view does no justify the billing and was not a spectators delight...just as last weeks Supertourer at HD....a seriously disappointing grid.

Travel costs including time is a serious factor and as you say if you get it right all is fine...get it wrong and the results not only turns the promoters off but also pushes Joe Public away.

[George Sheweiry]

The overall views expressed here have hit the nail on the head, numbers, variety and public appeal. Give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers. Graham Pearce and Peter Hanna got it right "Big banger Saloons", thats why they had to close the gates at their meetings because they were full and had the likes of NZIGP clamoring to get the saloons brought over to NZ by those 2 to their single seater based meetings. The Frost brigade had it wrong and thats why everybody went to get lunch when the single seaters came out. the F5000s with their brute power got a few more people interested but the average person still wanted to see the saloons because they were the cars they would drive on the road every week. They wanted to see how their car would do when pushed to the limits against other cars. Remember Henry Fords famous quote Race on Saturday, win on Sunday, sell on Monday!! (or something like that). Dont get me wrong their still needs to be a single seater class but as suggested a new version of the most popular, F5000!! with a standard chassis from all the makers as well as joe average can build, stock block with one of at least 10 of the current V8s available and weighted to a power to weight ratio but in conjunction with Australia, Great Britain and US if they could be bothered and they need to be spectacular with big wings and aero, but do them out of Fiberglass and have a road car transaxle like the new GT40s and pick a road car brake package that is up to the job, basically like the early days where people could make their own car and that would most importantly keep it affordable for most people. Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it The combined dealers saloon car 500 and a flag with all their logos on as the emblem for it all and every new car sold gets a TCDSC500 sticker and race series blurb sheet/programme so they actually know in advance when and where the series will run. So you have your big deal 500 race and then smaller support races at T1 after that. Modified saloons, people loved these because they all wondered just how good their road cars would be with some mods. IMHO the class that was the closest to this was NZV8. Joe average could by his cheap high mileage car and convert it into a racer and be as competitive as the big boys, and that showed with the big fields they had. the thing they were lacking was variety, open it up to more V8 makes and models, Chrysler 300s, Montecarlos, Fusions, Mercedes, BMWs but let them run the strongest/ cheapest and available gearbox, diff, brake road car parts and emphasize to the public this fact and again power to weight managed. Full Race Saloons has to be Trans ams, a class that has been around for years with a good solid set of rules that again joe average could run a competitive car against the big boys. They have everything / V8s, variety, big wheels, aero, wings and because there is now a lot of V8 super tourers, incorporate them into the class. Production Muscle cars, people still like high performance road cars, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Cudas, Firebirds, Plymouth RTs, Commodores, Falcon FPV and there is probably even some Euros. Now days they come out with massive brake packages, 5 & 6 speed HD boxes, killer supension packages so again to keep it affordable base it on road cars from say 2000 to 2010, take all the interior out, cage them, race seat competition pads and that's it again power to weight ratio them. Put them on a road tire with only 180 tread wear to make them slip and slide and so that you get the maximum amount of miles on them before it makes a difference in times to buy a new set and of course this will limit oil surge, and with all these classes any parts needed let the competitors source their own parts not having to buy them like as some cases in the past from one particular deal. Another thing all the classes that run slicks make them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it . There's your Tier 1 Classes. What do ya think?

[ERC]

Spot on!

[Rod Grimwood]

Sounds shit hot George, be awesome , but in reality along comes those same people, (being nice here in calling them people) and slowly corrode it until they are big dog and it is down the gurgler again. Sad but motorsport in NZ has been inflicted with these people/groups for along time, and I do not see them leaving, in fact one of the main protagonists was snooping around in the F5000 sheds at Hampton, thank god the doors were open and he moved on through fairly quickly.

[fullnoise68]

Dead right Rod. `Snakes in the grass' is probably a more apt description. Look at every `new' class that`s been and gone, or is currently critically wounded, and the same old lizards are still flaunting their `knowledge'.
There is no easy fix, the family entertainment dollar is being spent more wisely these days, so to get the family along to any motorsport event, the interest retention level must be good or else you don`t get them back..... Nowadays so many competitors get all bitter and twisted over the most trivial crap imaginable, what the hell happened to the fun factor .....
Creating more new classes is not the answer, getting bums on seats is about putting on a show and with the amount of cars from both defunct and depleted classes sitting around surely its up to interested groups to get together and make it happen. If you`d said to people 5 years ago that Graham Addis and Barry Algie were going to race their old cars again, they`d have laughed at you ......

[George Sheweiry]

well I am not so sure Rod I think it needs a panel of guys that used to run in each class of old for instance the modified saloons ( originaly NZV8), address all the things that wern't up to scratch and put on a replacement that wont break or whatever, use harder tyre compounds for longer life all the things that would make it cheaper even if the cars went slower like pull back the revs. go over every aspect of the original and make it better then when you have the formula you think is the deal add in the rule I put in when I reformed our Productiion Muscle Car, club series, which is now in its 15th season. The Technical rules can only be changed with a 100% vote! That puts an end to the oh I think we should have bigger brakes or more modified engines and then the first and last races of the season are complete reverse grid or handicap. But the officials would have to get on board with a crack down on punting, not rubbing, punting and anyone deemed to be at fault pays a $200 fine to who ever they took out, only gets 1/2 their points for that race and starts the next race from the rear. If they get more than 3 x 1st placings in a row the next race they have to start from 10th and at the end of that years series everyone sits down and gives their 2 cents worth on any arising problems and they are then dealt with by a 95% vote and if that doesn't work for next season keep adding bits to it so that no one can dominate absolutely. It just needs a set of rules to give everyone a fair crack at it. And the reason for that is that then you wont get the guys going oh I am just going to finish up at the back as usual parking their cars up. Rod I think its worth a try!

[Murray Maunder]

"Premiere" racing classes will never again live up to the description due to the increasingly professional and expensive nature of world motorsport IMHO. Toyota Racing Series is as good as it's likely to get even if I wouldn't bother flicking on the TV to watch it due to the lack of local involvement - it's a business model the organisers have taken and good luck to them. I think it's a class that despite TV is so inward looking - it's not spectator friendly having downforce projectiles that inevitably smash expensive composite panels most times a pass is attempted. I gave up on this stuff years ago.

Didn't the F5000s actually get to compete for the NZGP a few seasons ago - or was that just Lady Wigram Trophy? The F5000s do have a following but the reluctance of these predominantly enthusiast racers to chase a national series of say 6 or more rounds means it will probably just be a great bash every year at the Festival for a full field and elsewhere have embarrassingly thin fields. The same could be said for Historic Musclecars (with their Australian TransAm mates) - it's about enthusiasts and a degree of "rivalry", not out and out racer territory.

For "premiere" we could maybe consider these top of the classic tree classes up there if HRC can put together the sort of promo package that brings even more young converts than is currently the case. The efforts are presently admirable but largely singing to the same crowd each year IMO. The muscle car guys do a great job bringing back the legends for signing sessions and the overall standard of prep of these two classes is superb and much more exciting than any wings and slicks silhouette class running.

Every time an all new class gets started another load of money gets tipped into another venture which inevitably fails. Let's hope F5000 and HMC continues to be viable, editing, loud, brash racing just like back in the 60s and 70s. When I tell youngsters that those cars can run with almost anything from a down under race class 40+ years on and they hold the outright record at HD, they want to check them out, and they're never disappointed.

[George Sheweiry]

Dead right Rod. `Snakes in the grass' is probably a more apt description. Look at every `new' class that`s been and gone, or is currently critically wounded, and the same old lizards are still flaunting their `knowledge'.
There is no easy fix, the family entertainment dollar is being spent more wisely these days, so to get the family along to any motorsport event, the interest retention level must be good or else you don`t get them back..... Nowadays so many competitors get all bitter and twisted over the most trivial crap imaginable, what the hell happened to the fun factor .....
Creating more new classes is not the answer, getting bums on seats is about putting on a show and with the amount of cars from both defunct and depleted classes sitting around surely its up to interested groups to get together and make it happen. If you`d said to people 5 years ago that Graham Addis and Barry Algie were going to race their old cars again, they`d have laughed at you ......

Yes you are right about the same old snakes and that is why you change the format that has just run and run for years mix it up even to the point where it is nearl a lottery to win, but Tier 1 should be about modern cars and a modern formula/format The Addis Charger the Algie Monaro the Sidchrome Mustang are for Historic events and lets face it its only the likes of us who saw them race that are really interested in them, dont get me wrong I am just as interested to see them out again in fact some of those old classes could even be involved in Tier 2. Overseas you don't see them running really old cars in their Tier 1 do you? But equally we aren't in the same league money wise or population size. So we need to do our classes here as modern as possible and as cost effective and any classes need to take Australia into consideration as there is nothing wrong with a good bit of trans Tasman rivalry.

[George Sheweiry]

This is a great thread and one that was long overdue come on guys we need all of you to have a say because Allan is right the Tier 1 or premiere racing we have at the moment even my cat wouldn't walk across the road to see it !!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

The overall views expressed here have hit the nail on the head, numbers, variety and public appeal. Give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers. Graham Pearce and Peter Hanna got it right "Big banger Saloons", thats why they had to close the gates at their meetings because they were full and had the likes of NZIGP clamoring to get the saloons brought over to NZ by those 2 to their single seater based meetings. The Frost brigade had it wrong and thats why everybody went to get lunch when the single seaters came out. the F5000s with their brute power got a few more people interested but the average person still wanted to see the saloons because they were the cars they would drive on the road every week. They wanted to see how their car would do when pushed to the limits against other cars. Remember Henry Fords famous quote Race on Saturday, win on Sunday, sell on Monday!! (or something like that). Dont get me wrong their still needs to be a single seater class but as suggested a new version of the most popular, F5000!! with a standard chassis from all the makers as well as joe average can build, stock block with one of at least 10 of the current V8s available and weighted to a power to weight ratio but in conjunction with Australia, Great Britain and US if they could be bothered and they need to be spectacular with big wings and aero, but do them out of Fiberglass and have a road car transaxle like the new GT40s and pick a road car brake package that is up to the job, basically like the early days where people could make their own car and that would most importantly keep it affordable for most people. Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it The combined dealers saloon car 500 and a flag with all their logos on as the emblem for it all and every new car sold gets a TCDSC500 sticker and race series blurb sheet/programme so they actually know in advance when and where the series will run. So you have your big deal 500 race and then smaller support races at T1 after that. Modified saloons, people loved these because they all wondered just how good their road cars would be with some mods. IMHO the class that was the closest to this was NZV8. Joe average could by his cheap high mileage car and convert it into a racer and be as competitive as the big boys, and that showed with the big fields they had. the thing they were lacking was variety, open it up to more V8 makes and models, Chrysler 300s, Montecarlos, Fusions, Mercedes, BMWs but let them run the strongest/ cheapest and available gearbox, diff, brake road car parts and emphasize to the public this fact and again power to weight managed. Full Race Saloons has to be Trans ams, a class that has been around for years with a good solid set of rules that again joe average could run a competitive car against the big boys. They have everything / V8s, variety, big wheels, aero, wings and because there is now a lot of V8 super tourers, incorporate them into the class. Production Muscle cars, people still like high performance road cars, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Cudas, Firebirds, Plymouth RTs, Commodores, Falcon FPV and there is probably even some Euros. Now days they come out with massive brake packages, 5 & 6 speed HD boxes, killer supension packages so again to keep it affordable base it on road cars from say 2000 to 2010, take all the interior out, cage them, race seat competition pads and that's it again power to weight ratio them. Put them on a road tire with only 180 tread wear to make them slip and slide and so that you get the maximum amount of miles on them before it makes a difference in times to buy a new set and of course this will limit oil surge, and with all these classes any parts needed let the competitors source their own parts not having to buy them like as some cases in the past from one particular deal. Another thing all the classes that run slicks make them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it . There's your Tier 1 Classes. What do ya think?

When do you get time for work George,very well said,this is the road we need to go down to bring our sport back up to something that came before this Bullshit that I see out there today.