New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[Howard Wood]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

[ERC]

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Totally agree. It isn't a level playing field anyway, so smaller cars that were run on period slicks makes a lot of sense. We had trouble with JayDees Halliday Escort getting appropriate tyres, so we gave a dispensation to allow it to run on slicks, as it is a period historic car and not a modern build where the owner is seeking to maximise performance. Now it has a more suitable class in which to run, 'our problem' goes away - which is what we usually envisage when we make a pragmatic ruling.

However, JayDee is always welcome, regardless!

[AMCO72]

Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will give this question due consideration. ......

[cooper64]

Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will this question due consideration. ......and I can promise I am not going to 'go away' !!!!!!!!

would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge

[Spgeti]

would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge

Cooper64, as post #1, please send myself or Dale an email at the above addresses. All cars must have a COD as per Schedule K or T&C.

bruced105@gmail.com

Cheers, Bruce

[crunch]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Agree as well !

[Spgeti]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Howard.

I plan to come up to Ice Breaker to meet a few of you and perhaps drag Bill up with me.

Cheers

Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head Howard.

As for tyres, its actually very simple. Dale quoted the tyre ruling in Post #14; either a road legal DOT radial, or a period correct bias ply treaded tyre:

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

There is actually a massive availability on sizes available in the bias-ply, for everything from Minis right through to the HMC V8s. Hoosier cover most bases. This is because historic racing is so huge internationally, so most makes and models of cars that HMC/HSC covers are catered for. Cardwell Racing Supplies can get almost everything required, and the prices are very reasonable. The only issues so far have been for cars such as John Dennehey's Halliday Escort, with its very wide 13" diameter wheels. John had Roger Kraus Racing in the US groove a set for the Escort.

[AMCO72]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

[Steve Holmes]

[Steve Holmes]

[AMCO72]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

Thanks Gerald.

[Howard Wood]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

[Spgeti]

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

[Howard Wood]

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

And if that is the regulation, no problem. My point (and Gerald's too I think) was that we should consider the options first rather than just blindly follow other classes regulation. Having set the regulation, the class must enforce it along with the CoD compliance etc or we are back to the Hot Rod situation again. There is a good 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap difference between genuine DoT tyres and either slicks or quasi slicks like the Handcooks.

[AMCO72]

Absolutely my point also Howard. I have been beating my head against a brick wall over this subject of tyres for years as you know. I am only speaking for the Amco mini here, but it was on slicks exclusively for its 2 seasons in 1971/1972, and we have put this to organisers at other events....Manfield, Ruapuna, Teretonga and Highlands Park, and have got dispensation to run on slicks at those meetings.

This is a new class and in my view we dont HAVE to be following other classes slavishly. Now is the time to step back, take a look at what is at stake and perhaps do something about it. We are well into the slick period with these machines and if a cars suspension was designed for them so be it.