Hampton Downs

[AMCO72]

An interesting observation was made by oldfart in post 28. He says....'.that motoracing ceased to be that years ago, and is now an entertainment package'. I can agree with some of the hooplah that some want at a race meeting...cars and car related stuff is ok, but bouncy castles for the kids?? Custaxie50 says this is ok as it draws the kids in, and by association the parents....all paying at the turnstile. I had never thought of it that way, but there you go, you learn something everyday. By the way Custaxie50, oldfart was, by some miracle, actually agreeing with you about providing entertainment other than cars. [At least I think he was] Things are looking up!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

AMCO72--when the first apartments went on sale i think they were going for $85,000--now $300,000 plus for an apartment,looking at some of what has been said (they are not interested in the public, is that also the feeling in nz also if some are freehold where would you be if HD fell over.

[nigel watts]

I've been to all three festivals now, buying tickets, programmes, food etc. I enjoyed the first two better than the BMW event simply because Bruce McLaren & Chris Amon were boyhood heros of mine whereas BMW doesn't mean much to me at all. I did enjoy the HMC races immensely - well done Dale.
I was however quite shocked at the lack of spectators on the day I attended. The grandstands were only about a third full at best. Thinking back to the 60's when Pukekohe enjoyed large crowds of race fans, there was no TV to speak of, no Super 15 Rugby, the All Blacks played very few games, there were no swap meets, hot rod shows, classic car events, Drag Racing etc etc. I enjoy classic racing, classic motorbikes, hot rod & classic car shows - there's something on somewhere nearly every weekend. There's huge competition for every spectator dollar. The kids are not that interested in historic racing but they do turn out in droves for drifting and other Japanese car based events [and let's not forget the wet T Shirt competitions]. For classic racing you need to find a way to entice along the teens & twenties, or classic historic racing will die a slow death along with the circuits.
I'm sure you all know all of this already. So it's not about apartment owners inviting along non paying guests [an extra couple of hundred tickets sold is not going to make that much difference].
I know the promoters are trying very hard to come up with events that will attract the punters, so I'm not knocking their efforts BUT they haven't cracked it yet.
What's the answer - buggered if I know, but there must surely be one. HMC is a step in the right direction.
Maybe if everyone on the forum puts their collective thinking caps on we can come up with some workable solutions.

[AMCO72]

Nigel, you are right about the 3 festivals. The first one celebrating Bruce McLaren was certainly the best. It had a real buzz about it. Perhaps because it was the first. Spectators made the effort to dress in period, and we all came away feeling the something special had taken place, which indeed it had. Chris Amon festival was ok, but there was no buzz at this last one, and as I said most of us in the 60's saloon class had decided last year that we weren't going to attend, and save our efforts for the Denny Hulme show. I hope we dont have to resort to drifting and wet T shirt competitions to get the paying public in though. I still think that the advertising could have been better. I know a budget would have to have been stuck to, and advertising is hugely expensive, especially on the telly and sometimes it is not always obvious that you are getting any benefit. Classic and Historic racing tends to be the preserve of 'older' people rather than the teens and twenties you are hoping to attract, but frankly they cant be bothered watching a bunch of fat, sweaty old men doing there thing in an old bomb. They are used to watching real, live, violent action at the movies and on the telly that makes old car racing look deadly dull. Hampton Downs is so close to Auckland that distance cannot be the excuse for not coming, and with unrivaled access from the motorway, and good parking at the venue should be a bonus. We are spoiled for things to do, and perhaps on a nice fine day, in the middle of summer, watching classic motoracing is not one of them.

[Bruce302]

I too have been to all three festival events, I have been invited to apartments also, and as far as I can tell, all the invited apartment guests had paid to get into the track. No one with a hint of petrol in their veins can go to the apartments and not go closer to the action. Imagine not having the apartments. The track would be in a wilderness of the north waikato. Zero ambience.

Tony and Chris have done a stunning job, but there is still a way to go. Custaxie50 has some valid points. It's about entertainment for the widest possible audience. The dates do clash with a lot of other auto activities, Kumeu show and the drags to name two .

The BMW event was the poor cousin to the first two, festivals, but I say that as a common V8 lover. No doubt the German marque lovers were very happy, and I guess they paid one way or another.

Our biggest hurdle is the lack of population, pure and simple, and the average mans income. all things considered we (NZ) do spectacularly well. A Canadian friend here a couple of years ago could not believe the amount of racing happening on the weekend he was here, and the TV coverage it got.

Lets make the "Denny Hulme" one to make the world sit up and take note of. Just think of all the Can Am cars that will be here

Bruce.

[timbo61]

My first trip across the ditch to Pukekohe was in January 2008 for the Tasman Revival as it was then.
It was a mix of historic and modern racing and the one thing I did notice was there were a lot of BMW's there competing both in a controlled class and an open class.
Perhaps having a Tribute to BMW meant the promoters could be guaranteed good grids which also means good entry fees being paid. It sure helps when balancing the books at the end of the day.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Go wash your mouth out AMCO72 we cant have that can we,OLDFART AGREEING--(Laughing)--Bouncy castles dont know about that but if it beings them in do it.

[Oldfart]

Custaxie 50, as Amco has said, I agreed with you! So what did I say that was a problem for you?
In the "good old days" even the humble grass track meetings at Waharoa, Raglan etc attracted a very good crowd, and the entry fees were low enough for pretty much all of us to compete and more to the point have a hell of a lot of fun. There were winners, of course, but from my distant memory it was not too important. Now please accept that I am NOT an advocate of the school athletics where the kids get an award for participating, winning (or more to the point trying as hard as you can) is bloody important, real life is like that.
So why have recent events (well from the 80s on) got less and less crowds? If you have been to a "proper" Grand Prix, you know that you see a shedload more on the box than you can at the circuit, just bugger all atmosphere.
How do you turn that around and get huge crowds? For me, personal opinion, reverse grid is a sham. Then again speedway often has fastest off the back and they still drag in the crowds, without the bouncy castles etc.
I don't profess to know.
I suspect that promoters get more $$$ from TV than the gate, so perhaps they don't mind?
Bruce302 I reckon you are right, we ALL need to make sure that 5 of our mates get to the Denny meeting, isn't that what we used to do, get a crowd of our own, I don't know how many are on this site but multiply that alone by 5! Our personal enthusiasms are probably the greatest weapon. Lets all be positive.

[Oldfart]

Go wash your mouth out AMCO72 we cant have that can we,OLDFART AGREEING--(Laughing)--Bouncy castles dont know about that but if it beings them in do it.

Hey you actually intimated such things by saying bands side shows show cars etc you have to think outside the square. (I kept your lack of punctuation )
Of course it does mean you might not be there for the motor racing at all!

[Oldfart]

Just had a random thought!
I don't go to a lot of meetings any more and was trying to think why.
Part of it is the lack of really slick organisation. Back in the day we very rarely had races stopped, pace (safety) cars were unknown and it was pretty common for the next race to be doing their lap to the grid while the others came off. We, as flaggies, had lunch grabbed when we could, not walk back to the race HQ and come back some time later.
Perhaps the spectators simply get turned off by bugger all happening?
I started going to Speedway, stock cars etc, and the don't mess around anywhere near as much.

[RGM]

I went to Hampton Downs on Sunday watched the morning races then went home and watched on telly,much more comfortable and not so hot(not much shade) and enjoyed a few cold ones at the same time.Apart from the Muscle cars I thought the racing was fairly boring.As for Hampton Downs it is going to devalop into a great facility in time but I still like Pukekohe and feel there is a place for both and as a competitor we need all the circuits we can have.
On the subject of crowds Kiwis are a fickle lot and turn up to something new and then drop off as a couple of years go by (Hamilton)

[AMCO72]

Now there's a thing....speedway. I haven't been to a speedway meet for some time, but I hear that they still manage to draw in the crowds. Why? Rapid, quick fire races, no buggering around with safety cars, except in the event of a bad crash, and plenty of action on the track, and an occasional stoush in the pits, and they do actually RACE. All good fun, and as oldfart says it WAS all good fun. I wrote ages ago on Yards and Yarns, that it was a long time since I had seen a smile on the spectators faces, but just occasionally we can drag them away from the hot-dog stand and get them enthralled in the action on the track. Of course it is the same old story....participation is better than anticipation, and I can see that to a lot of people motoracing is about as boring as America's Cup sailing or bowls, but I'm sure that actually participating in those events is hugely exciting. All this to see if we can improve the image of Classic car racing, and I'm sure if we bandy it about long enough some ideas will come out of it.

[Kiwiboss]

I've been to all three festivals now, buying tickets, programmes, food etc. I enjoyed the first two better than the BMW event simply because Bruce McLaren & Chris Amon were boyhood heros of mine whereas BMW doesn't mean much to me at all. I did enjoy the HMC races immensely - well done Dale.
I was however quite shocked at the lack of spectators on the day I attended. The grandstands were only about a third full at best. Thinking back to the 60's when Pukekohe enjoyed large crowds of race fans, there was no TV to speak of, no Super 15 Rugby, the All Blacks played very few games, there were no swap meets, hot rod shows, classic car events, Drag Racing etc etc. I enjoy classic racing, classic motorbikes, hot rod & classic car shows - there's something on somewhere nearly every weekend. There's huge competition for every spectator dollar. The kids are not that interested in historic racing but they do turn out in droves for drifting and other Japanese car based events [and let's not forget the wet T Shirt competitions]. For classic racing you need to find a way to entice along the teens & twenties, or classic historic racing will die a slow death along with the circuits.
I'm sure you all know all of this already. So it's not about apartment owners inviting along non paying guests [an extra couple of hundred tickets sold is not going to make that much difference].
I know the promoters are trying very hard to come up with events that will attract the punters, so I'm not knocking their efforts BUT they haven't cracked it yet.
What's the answer - buggered if I know, but there must surely be one. HMC is a step in the right direction.
Maybe if everyone on the forum puts their collective thinking caps on we can come up with some workable solutions.

You guys here on this forum are a great bunch and show your concern by the fact that you are prepared to post!!! but lets not get carry'd away and snipe at one another!! after all AMCO called me RICH, and if he only knew, but im not about to take that outta txt. You all have great ideas and fantastic comments and you all are rite, in different ways!! i can only view what i know and think from my own personal past learning's, in particular historic racing in California. For the size of the surrounding population in California you could say that the HD Festival crowd was huge? in proportion? so that would mean last weekends Supertourers had a US NASCAR size crowd (in-proportion)? my 3 day gate pass at Monterey was $195USD, could you image how many spectators we would get if we charged that? NOBODY!! yet in the USA that is just the accepted price to pay for the capital outlay in the said facility, yet here at HD even some thought the weekends $30 was too much, i had such a good time i felt like giving them more money when i left, WHAT A BARGAIN. When i ship my Mustang to the Shelby Nationals at Somona(San Francisco) 2 years ago i tried to get out of the $1000US entry fee as i knew the event organizer personally, but he said he couldn't do this as the track hire alone was $30K a day, i felt guilty and paid as this was a once in a life time bucket list adventure for me!! but he said if the racers don't pay then they don't have an event, quite a sorry state if you ask me!! and that's why when i bought my American mate down 2 years ago, he couldn't believe how cheap it was and he was winning on the exchange rate as well. I actually shipped his Mustang to NZ and back cheaper than he can haul it up to Kent, Washington and back to his CA home. We are spoilt here NZ and we are truly the last frontier of the wages come poor-man racer, yet i had to travel overseas to find this out. Lets look at our Aussie Trans Am racers, they had the time of there lives, infact i should post some of the E-mails of thanks that myself, Jim, Tony and Chris received, they said they have never been treated so well at a major motorsport event and how well organised, welcoming and friendly we all are(take a bow you guys) just the little things like the grid stickers on your steering wheel, they had never seen that before and will now use that back in Aus!! I guess what im tryin to say is lets look at the BIG picture, and maybe for Hulme next year we may draw more spectators? but i have a funny feeling that RMG(post 51) is rite, that kiwi crowds are a fickle lot, and McLaren was a great crowd because it and the track was new, bit like the Supertourers? the recession we(and the world) is in is only a "state of mind" so once we get over that i guess things will look up and maybe, just maybe we will see some crowds back at Historic events, and really that's all there is too it.

Dale Mathers

[Neville Milne]

Neville
have you been to Virginia International Raceway yet? It's about 30 km from where I am based, VIR is a great circuit with excellent amenities, and although I haven't been back to HD, sounds like it is a similar set-up. VIR has bathrooms worthy of the Hilton!
Re Baltimore, I attended the inaugural Indycar event there last year, glad to se that they have scraped together the backing for this year too.
Grant Ellwood

Grant, I have not been to VIR, yet. Of late, work schedules and the restoration of both an old car and an even older house, have put a crimp in apre time activities. Over the years I have been lucky enough to get to Sears Point, Talladega, Daytona, Summit Point. Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and Indy.
Like some, I was surprised that Baltimore managed to attract AND host an Indycar race...Although it was quite successful, from an attendance point of view, it was still problematic, financially, and that's with both city and state involvement and commitment. No wonder, then, that H/D are still finding their way. It's early days yet, for H/D; it's a brave effort and they deserve to succeed

[Steve Holmes]

We're living in a changing world, and as a form of entertainment, motorsport has had to adapt to the changing times. Modern day motorsport has to provide a more appealing package than it did 40 years ago. The paying public just won't accept watching one car drive off into the distance and win by 2 laps. The competition to relieve people of their hard-earned is huge, and if motorsport can't keep up with the times, it loses out. Thats why there are more and more racing formulae in which the cars are all identical. Like or hate it, there aren't enough enthusiasts for motorsport to survive, it has to appeal to the general public also. So the racing needs to be close and unpredictable, the cars loud, there needs to be an atmosphere, and if there is a crash or two, thats even better. NASCAR is a perfect example of this.

Historic racing is slightly different, it appeals to a different breed. But it still has to keep pace with the changing times. Consider the growth of discussion forums like this one, and compare them to magazines. Discussion forums are interactive. Everyone gets a voice, and gets to give their thoughts on a subject. A magazine is more one-sided. Before the arrival of the internet, magazines were it.

One of the best interactive historic racing events I've been to is the Australian Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek. That event attracts a larger crowd than the V8 Supercars when they race at Eastern Creek. And I think a large part of that is because the MCM is an interactive event. The organisers have built into the event the attraction of the car clubs, and those involved in the car clubs get to journey to the event with their club mates, and be part of the event, rather than just be there to be entertained. And there is a HUGE number of these people who attend so they can park their cars up together, interact with fellow members, and chat with fellow enthusiasts. I'd say a good portion of them don't even watch the racing, or even have an interest in the racing. But they've paid to be there, and the organisers benefit from them being there, both in terms of the dollars they pay to be there, and the additional crowds they attract. So the MCM is a sort of double-whammy. There are those who attend as spectators, to be entertained. And there are those who attend as car club members, to show off their cars and interact. Of course, you need the space to cater for all these car clubs, and even Eastern Creek is bursting at the seams. But its probably a nice problem to have.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[AMCO72]

Dale and Steve, thanks for your ususal well measured and thoughtful replies. And Dale, I hope all the exclamation marks after my remark on your wealth, not health, was an indication that my statement was 'foot in mouth', no thats not right...'tongue in cheek', Should have had a little LOL face there somewhere.

[timbo61]

I agree with everything said about the Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek.
It is very much a motor racing meeting designed for the fans at the track and not a television audience, which is what V8 Supercars is.
It is a very relaxed atmosphere, there is always something happening on the track, and once you are in the gate, you don't get charged an arm and a leg to sit in the grandstands or enter the pits like you do at V8 Supercars.
The end result is, a very large crowd.

[jim short]

Looking back way back 1955 the 2nd Ardmore G P .We sat on the back straight on the blanket and I quess it was boring except we had never seen such cars Bira in his blue and yellow 250f Gaze and Whithead red Ferraris plus diferent makes all making a great sound,close to 3 hrs they raced positions never realy changed,I remember the one car I really wanted to see was the Jaguar xk120 John Horton perhaps, sadly only showed itself towing the HWM {I may be wrong??}No a little spell helps Horton drove the ex. Gaze car of 54.The saloons what a mixture mk7 Jags down to Y model Fords,a morris minor was real quick Harrington perhaps Windlburn in a Austin a30??.But the sports cars were my favorite still are,.I sit up in the early hours of the morning watching Form.1 why ! man they can be boring why do we do it{this has been a senior moment}

[CUSTAXIE50]

Now oldfart- dont get off your bike i was having a laugh and some fun with what AMCO72 put up ,bouncy castles i dont recall saying that, now SPEEDWAY i see there is a big sprint car meeting in palmerston north this weekend the usa drivers will be there last year they were doing just over 13 sec lap times ,and one said if he had his car here from the usa he would be doing just over 11 sec lap times so if you want to see some all out balls racing get along this weekend ,and being the kids and get the cook out of the kitchen for a good night out allmost forgot the sidecars may be there also so get along and see some real racing, last weekend a lady came into the sidecar pits with her boy they just loved them the boy just wanted to know all about sidecars i told him to come back in 10 years ,these days i am into real speed bonneville and i am looking at going to wendover this year, i do have a bike in the shed that i started working on 18 years ago so maybe one day

[Howard Wood]

New Zealand Motor Racing has traditionally enjoyed huge crowds. The New Year meetings at Bay Park being a good example but probably for 90% of the paying spectators they were there for the accidents, looking at the bikini babes and drinking beer (not necessarily in that order) but it was the thing to do while on holiday and probably the best entertainment available and there was less competition for the entertainment dollar. Even more so, the claimed crowds at Ardmore were unbelievable, partly because it was new and exciting but let's be honest, in NZ at the time there was very little other entertainment on offer.

Because of the crowd revenue it was possible until the late '70's to pretty much fund your Motor Racing from prize money. Certainly I did but maybe we are just catching up with the real world.

In the '70's I spannered on a range of cars in Europe including Le Mans where the crowd number was estimated at 250,000 and European F3 Championship rounds where 3 men and a dog paid to go through the turnstiles. Why? Frankly the racing at Le Mans is boring but it was a "name event" but also a 24 hour carnival with bars, ferris wheels and the whole range of entertainment. European F3 by comparison was a grid of future F1 champions who were prepared to die for the cause and the racing was probably closer and harder than any other class anywhere in the world at the time. For a purist like me, no contest but the event was funded by the entrants which in this case was not an issue as it was the established way to F1 and the fields were over subscribed.

So we as historic racers (or the promotors) have to decide if we are entertainment or a niche sporting event funded by entry fees. Timing of the events to avoid clashes or to cash in on a ready made crowd as New Year Bay Park certainly helps and there does need to be other attractions but if our racing becomes "crash and bash" in order to satisfy the paying public, I for one will stop doing it.