NZ Historic Racing Saloons Group

[Steve Holmes]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.

Actually Gerald, HMC and U3 are a fantastic match for each other. The combination of the two groups is just that, bringing together two groups that compliment each other. All the cars are period correct, and they look amazing out on the track together. Perhaps eventually each will grow in car numbers to the point its not possible to race together at the high profile events, because there are simply too many cars. I reckon if you spoke to the HMC guys at the Denny Hulme event, almost all would be full of praise for the way the small car guys drove. And I think the same would be true of the small car guys. Remember, 40 years ago big cars and small cars all raced together. Nothing has changed, there is no reason why it can't still be the case.

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

[Spgeti]

It is a good idea Steve. I am staggered by reading the old programes on SFOS 2013. Where are all the Mini Cooper "S"s, the Lotus Cortinas etc. Have they all disappeared to the confines of garages never to be seen again or are they just to precious to bring out ?

[Steve Holmes]

I was wondering the same thing Bruce. I know many of the old Mini's were probably absorbed into Mini 7 racing when that eventually began, and there was plenty of carnage in there, but surely there must be a lot that have survived?

[John McKechnie]

Steve H-Too precious to bring out is a very strong and logical reason . Thats one reason why people build replicas.
Its a big hurdle getting those who own these cars to actually take them out and give them a good dealing to on the track.......with others very close.
Talking honestly and privately to these owners would be more fruitful than throwing this open here, after all they are their babies.
Maybe Bob Homewood give some imput here please.

[Steve Holmes]

But John, the list I posted at the opening of this thread is of cars that are already racing, thats why I posted them. So no question of them being too precious.

[John McKechnie]

Ok, new tack- what is the percentage of those living in NI and those in SI ?
Also the chances of everybody meeting at certain tracks and how many times a year.
Logistically it would be huge. The prestige of a promoter hosting this would be right up there.
In that case replace precious with deep pockets to one meeting NI and one SI to make sure everyone is committed.
Hey Steve, I thought you said you were flat out with work , and here you are suggesting the absolute biggest Historic Racing Saloon car series.
Great scheme.
I know the Monaro would like to revisit the tracks it did the Mercury Series in.

[Spgeti]

John I can appreciate that these cars are their babies and the last thing we wish to see is an historic car damaged or lost in the heat of competion. My question was where are they all. When I was a young fella in Whangarei the Cooper Ss around were Mary Carneys, Tim Slako, Neil Johns, John Weston, Peggy Fogden just to name a few. All these Ss raced during that time. There were also a huge amount of Anglias out there as well apart from the well known cars around today.
We see a fantastic group of single seaters and sports cars, all historic and to form a group of historic saloon would be great to see.

[John McKechnie]

My Mini Cooper S I raced in the early 70s could be out there-DG 2655.
BRG with white roof, sold with racing wheels and tyres.
Answers to the name Brutus.
Any one seen it?
If we adopt the American attitude toward Historic Racing -strong penalties and exclusion for contact-chances of loss would be hugely reduced.

[AMCO72]

John, seeing as you asked the question on this thread, I will reply on this thread.......thread pirates please note.

You ask whether we can run the original drivers seat, which matches the passenger seat in the Mini. Angus elected to put a 'proper' modern race seat in because it offers so much more protection in the event of an accident......high back etc. Also applies to the seat belts which really couldnt be used with the old seat as there were no slots for the belts to go through. Having said that ,the old seat was quite comfy....for me, and in the 80's when I first raced the car it was quite satisfactory.
And yes, all the seating should be in place, as it was.

The original roll frame was a very simple affair. Just a loop with a couple of braces back to the rear wheel arches. Dont know what it was made of but I suspect steam tube. Anyway it did the job. When the car was inverted at the Hamilton Classic in 1993, if you look at the photos of the car afterwards, the hoop stopped the roof from compressing the driver, which is all it is supposed to do.
The car now has a very comprehensive roll FRAME, but I'm not sure whether that was a requirement from MSNZ or just Angus being safe. So the whole bodywork is ever so much stiffer and heavier than it was, but not sure whether that makes it any safer for the driver.

As to the question of where have all the Minis and Anglias gone, well a lot of Anglias were just parked, and robbed, then went to pre 65 when that started up.
We did try and trace some of the better known Minis but was just about impossible. We actually found it easier to trace BACK from being a Mini 7, where a lot of them went, rather than start from a Cooper S or whatever, and go forward, but it was just a nightmare. Make no mistake they are probably out there, shoved in some barn or other. What we need is for the current owners to get onto the roaring season and tell us about them. But like a lot of 'old car' owners they get a bit 'funny' in their old age, and start to get all secretive, thinking someone is going to rip them off.......and anyway the family is going to 'restore' the car one day in memory of dear ol Dad......yeh right!!!!!

[ERC]

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

As 95% of Athur's group are already running in the two ERC grids, (AES & Arrows) I am not sure what difference it would make. I started a thread for our group and publicised it on here, but even with 115 or so driver's registered, there is minimal response on here as presumably they are happy enough where they are and don't really have too much to say?

Steve, you do a great job of publicising HRC and between yourself and Dale, put out a lot of words each month, but is the intention to take drivers and cars out of the ERC group because our rules are a little more pragmatic than adhering to 100% period or T & C to get them into U3L?

I think not, as you don't seem to strike me as someone who would try to derail a proven series. For the U3L to create its own stand alone niche, it has to bring cars to the track that are not already racing. So far I can't think of a single U3L car that doesn't already have a regular place to run.

Over the years I have copped a lot of flack from relatively few people regarding our eligibility rules and can justify our/my stance on several grounds. The fact that we are close to T & C but not 100% is unfortunate but also totally justifiable.

I ask again. Can any meeting promoter afford to put on six grids of a few cars each and pay out $12,000 to run a 1 day meeting at HD? The answer is obvious but a few people are so totally wrapped up in the purity aspect that they ignore the realities.

Creating the U3L class to run at HRC meetings might well give a fair few drivers an additional 3 races, which they are doing, but if they had to pay full price for their grid space, I am pretty sure they'd opt for a series of meetings that are still chocolate fish based rather than running just two or three events a year. Or am I reading this all wrong?

Crunch is well aware of where T & C doesn't work for us and other like series, but creating an extra class just to appease those who believe that T & C in its present form and CoDs are the way forward is not going to bring cars out of the garages. It didn't in the previous Arrows Series (CoD essential) and it isn't happening now, even though publicity at the time was coming from MSNZ that this was the way forward.

Arthur himself has made the suggestion that we do not need the current cumbersome CoD 15 page system that tends to put people off, especially newcomers. Far better to have a simple declaration where anything non-standard is declared and can be easily audited.

You can go out today and pick up a roadworthy MGB GT for a song, but why the heck do you need to state the size of the clutch plate to get a CoD???? And who is ever going to check whether it has an 1800cc or a 1950cc engine? Does it matter, given that there is no level playing field?

The CoD system was intended to document and provide a provenance for an historic race car where that history and originality was deemed to be important.

Bringing out an historic race saloon or replica or even a saloon built out of period parts is all OK by me as currently they need a platform but you can't come out with six cars. Far better to have classes covering different levels, periods, capacities. They could just as easily pad out the HMC grid now, as a short term measure.

Without better paying grids then entry fees will rise. A 15 car grid covers the basic costs and puts something into the promoter's pocket as long as all drivers are paying a fair contribution and not doing double duty on one race fee. Where only one or two drivers are paying, it is a different story. Their grid is being subsidised by the other drivers.

The MGCC series is still in its infancy, but I can't guarantee a space on our programme after this year. Their club committee has elected to not join up with another marque club, so do we disband the ERC series so that the U3L series, the Alfas, MGs and the open BMW series have more members, thus leaving a fair few cars totally out in the cold, particulary Jaguars and the like and over 3 litre Porsches? After a total of 27 years, have we done our dash, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

I think the answer is pretty obvious but any proposed additional classes have to be justified and an open (Classic) race saloon class is.

[crunch]

, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

.

Hi Ray

Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?

[ERC]

Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?

Not once in all the newsletters, either in print or electronically, has the Series ever really been recognised, encouraged, promoted or acknowledged, despite the massive levies paid over the years. If I have overlooked something, I am happy to be proved wrong.

Never an offer to partially pay for our TV coverage of a few seasons back, so we had to fund it all ourselves, not even $1,000. Yet because we can get decent numbers to our own meeting, we paid MSNZ $2,300 for just one meeting last year. If I totted up the total we have paid MSNZ over the years, just on race levies alone, I am sure it would be substantial.

Only you Crunch, representing MSNZ, but in more in a personal capacity, has ever accepted that not only one grid, but two grids, have been viable and contributed to Classic grids over the last few years in the north island.

At several meetings and particularly, prior to the emergence of the BMW series', we have often provided at least 40% of the levies at those one day meetings, but have we ever been thanked for our considerable contribution to the MSNZ coffers? No, but we do see a lot of push for anyone toeing the T & C and CoD line and vast sums promoting 9 car grids!

Or let me turn it around, what has MSNZ done specifically for the series over the last 17 years? (Or 27 if you include the 10 years under Donn White?)

Maybe this should now move to the ERC thread?

[Steve Holmes]

This thread was created to form a list of racing saloon cars that have period race history, that are either currently competing somewhere around NZ in historic events, or are being restored with the intention of competing in historic events. Somehow its got onto the subject of the ERC series, politics, and MSNZ. It would appear I'm even being accused of trying to poach cars from ERC for HMC (by the way, I'm not, and never would).

From here on, this thread returns to the subject matter it was create for. Creating a list of existing saloon cars with period race history that are currently competing in historic racing, or being restored in order to compete in historic racing.

Crunch, I moved your last post over to the ERC thread.

[Spgeti]

Ian Munts Capri,
Sprauge Mk 111 Zephyr Replica

[Bruce302]

Great discussion Steve. I had been mulling over some very similar thoughts. As the owner of one of the cars mentioned (the Coppins Firebird) I seem to have vested interest.

I am fully in favour of a class or group that covers the cars mentioned, and there are more I would add. For example the PDL Mustangs, The Sidchrome Mustang, Coppins Camaro, (now with Tony Boyden) the Cossack Victor etc.

These are cars that need a place to be shown and exercised together Granted some, are entered and raced in various classes, and in doing so the real survivors are fragmented. I would like to see them all in one area, and run together on the track, in a manner like the HMC, but bearing in mind the wide spread of horsepower and handling ability. In speaking to other owners of the original cars there is some reservation about actually racing them, and a preference of maintaining the car, or preserving it as they were.

The fact that many are, or will be, presented in period correct manner means that engine sizes are not pushed to the limit, transmissions are old school, and as such wouldn't stand a chance if raced competitively. Especially in mixed grids.
I get my kicks from preserving the history as much, and as accurately, as possible.

I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated.

Bruce.

[John McKechnie]

Bruce-I would agree 100% with what you say, especially about the orig equipment not up to the pace of competitive racing.
Also , absolutely this is not a new racing class but an arena to congregate and be appreciated.
You are certainly in a position to say what is suitable and appropriate.
Any car can be raced, but these HRS are deservedly preserved for their history
On my HK Monaro -12 bolt diff now permanent resident in car
Recent sanding the car found a decent area of Grady Thomson Bronze.
Still no Spears Yellow.

[Carlo]

Bruce-I would agree 100% with what you say, especially about the orig equipment not up to the pace of competitive racing.
Also ,not a new class but an arena.

+1

[Steve Holmes]

Great discussion Steve. I had been mulling over some very similar thoughts. As the owner of one of the cars mentioned (the Coppins Firebird) I seem to have vested interest.

I am fully in favour of a class or group that covers the cars mentioned, and there are more I would add. For example the PDL Mustangs, The Sidchrome Mustang, Coppins Camaro, (now with Tony Boyden) the Cossack Victor etc.

These are cars that need a place to be shown and exercised together Granted some, are entered and raced in various classes, and in doing so the real survivors are fragmented. I would like to see them all in one area, and run together on the track, in a manner like the HMC, but bearing in mind the wide spread of horsepower and handling ability. In speaking to other owners of the original cars there is some reservation about actually racing them, and a preference of maintaining the car, or preserving it as they were.

The fact that many are, or will be, presented in period correct manner means that engine sizes are not pushed to the limit, transmissions are old school, and as such wouldn't stand a chance if raced competitively. Especially in mixed grids.
I get my kicks from preserving the history as much, and as accurately, as possible.

I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated.

Bruce.

Thanks Bruce, yes that last sentence is exactly what I was trying to suggest, but you worded it much better than me: "I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated".

The only reason I suggested the cut-off date of the end of 1973 was because many of the cars built post-1973 were built to some different regulations, were more 'Sports Sedan' like, ie, any motor could be fitted to any bodyshell, and the the speed differences between some of these cars and some of the earlier cars could start getting a little dangerous.

John Dennehy owns the old Don Halliday Escort. John is a very experienced driver with many years of racing behind him. He owns a well developed car in the old Halliday Escort, which is fitted with a BDG motor. John was lapping around the 1:18 lap time at Hampton Downs at the Denny Hulme event. I'd think John would be one of the fastest of the group of cars I'd listed at the start of this thread.

Tony Boyden owns the old Rod Coppins Camaro which was continuously developed throughout the 1970s for OSCA racing, and is now presented much as John Osborne had it in the early 1980s. Tony is almost as quick as the fastest Central Muscle Cars in the Camaro, and the fastest CMC cars are now lapping in the 1:08 bracket at Hampton Downs. So a big variance between him and John.

So that was the only reason I chose that cut-off, I think eventually a grid of post-1973 cars with racing history could also be formed, including Sports Sedans etc from the 1980s.

[Bruce302]

Steve, The reason I would like to see the slightly later Tin Top cars included is that they are as much appreciated, and in some cases more, than the earlier cars, depending on the spectators age. For me the 60's and 70's together was one place in time.

To have a wider time coverage we get more cars and hence a bigger potential audience. If the later 'tin tops' are outside the cut-off date, they would need a separate group, or arena of their own, again fragmenting them. We don't really have to numbers to break it down too much. I want to see those PDL Mustangs, Sidchrome Mustang, Nazer Victor etc, as much as the next guy.

I see it as a kind of mobile, rolling museum display. Any track time would be very informal, and there should be plenty of space around the cars.

Bruce.

[John McKechnie]

Spectators would be more interesting to watch them informalizing around the track in the spaces between races than drifting utes or go karts.