Safety Issues

[Jac Mac]

I didn't know that was requirement of Skope entry. Do you mean 4 meetings in total, or 4 meetings within a certain time frame? You might only do one meeting a year, say the Skope, which is not much better than none at all. And cheque book racers......yes well, that is now par for the course. We all get a certain amount of work done by professionals, as there would be few of us capable of tackling every job in a rebuild. I am lucky in that respect for I have my 'man' to do most stuff for me. Quite often he pays the bill as well, so I am really fortunate!!!! Dodgy repairs etc don't always show up at scrutineering, and Jac Mac has discovered 'things' that have escaped the eagle eye of previous scrutiny. As I said, I would hope that we put some value on our own skins and did things properly, but I have seen repairs done at meetings after crashes that would not stand too much inspection, and safety is compromised.

If all the rules/guidelines were followed as per the MSNZ book these faults would probably have been 'found', if your car is involved in an incident where components are bent or damaged ,you the owner/driver are supposed to re- present the car at scrutineering before racing again, in the cases I have observed this either did not happen or the recheck did not uncover the damage, further competition in the cars with the bent/broken parts caused further damage to the point where the cars were virtually undriveable & the owners approached me to try & diagnose the problems, it was obvious that several attempts had been made with some scary stuff like rod ends with only 3 or 4 threads engaged, heaps of spacing washers / longer bolts to get suspension parts to line up etc...the list goes on... gets pretty hard to find the root cause unless you strip the whole car down. Part of the issue I feel comes from owners/drivers who really dont want to take ownership of the problem...lets say you do the Skope series for example...you get the initial scruitineer check @ ChCh, you are then not reqd to be rechecked until the next meeting after Teretonga( Assuming ChCh, Levels, Teretonga) which might a club meeting in september etc, now if you have been involved in a minor incident that was ' fixed on race day' without a 'recheck' at the time the chances of finding the damaged component gets pretty slim.

[Russ Cunningham]

Food for thought and debate. ---

I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.

My great grand child recently gained fourth place racing a motorcycle and after a spill and getting back into the race. He is Four years old and I am sure he would be prevented from climbing anything while at kindergarten. LOL

Enjoy, Trevor.

Good Man,

I feel the same way. Motor sport today is crap & certainly not helped by the drop kicks in NZ motorsport who think that donating $1,000 to a pit girl competition assists competitors.
Do the decent thing Kerry Cooper and resign!

Russ Cunningham

[Russ Cunningham]

Hopefully we can have plenty of positive discussion regarding how we can race our vehicles in period styling while taking advantage of improved safety features. For example, I'm looking for some sort of containment system to stop my legs flailing about in a rollover (for a saloon). I have permanent knee damage from crashing a Begg at Baypark years ago my legs hit the dash hoop very hard on the way over the bank. I was wearing a 6 point harness but that doesn't stop your pins flailing around!
Also there are medical issues for many of us as we slide into our sunshine years, I'm taking blood pressure meds and am interested to see some discussion on this subject. I knew a driver who used to stop taking his meds a few days before an event because they affected his concentration, then had a heart attack during a race.
Plenty to discuss especially continuing the rollbar and helmet subjects...

Mate,

Your legs never looked great at any time. Your attempt at the "Miss Papamoa" title was an absolute joke and even high heels did'nt make them look any better.

As regards you going motor racing: You're bloody old & too likely to do a "Jonny Herbert" when the stress hits. Leave motorsport to us young blokes.

[bob homewood]

[QUOTE=Trevor Sheffield;12022]Food for thought and debate. ---

I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.

Got to agree with you there Trevor ,its now but a shadow of what we knew it as ,for some reason people have to keep reinventing the wheel and come up with all sorts of bull to try and equalise what is happening ,or else as Russ says they are milking the system in some way ,what ever happened to first across the line was the winner and everyone else had to catch up.sorry I just don't go to motor racing anymore other than to catch up with a few old mates

[Grant Ellwood]

Mate,

Your legs never looked great at any time. Your attempt at the "Miss Papamoa" title was an absolute joke and even high heels did'nt make them look any better.

As regards you going motor racing: You're bloody old & too likely to do a "Jonny Herbert" when the stress hits. Leave motorsport to us young blokes.

Apparently if I'd shaved I would have done OK. Russ, good to see you back on the site, been a while. Thought you might have gone camping with Custaxie. Cheers, Grant

[AMCO72]

Bob, when you say you don't go to motoracing these days, I presume you mean 'modern' motoracing. I'm sure I saw you at the festival back in January, in fact I KNOW I did......you gave me some good advice, and you have business dealing with motoracing. It is a pointless exercise blokes on here complaining about racing as it is today. We all know it's crap, but no one is forcing you to go. Perhaps that is why 'classic' racing has taken off the way it has, but don't hold your breath on that one either. As Dale says, he has to keep moving on from the 'hot-shot' boys, usually with big check-books, because of the probability of damage. But this has always been the case......look at Go-karts.....started out with lawn-mower motors and wheel-barrow wheels, now they look like a formula one car. In a sport like ours it is natural that drivers and builders want to push the boundaries. I remember in the mid eighties when classic racing was quite new, someone turned up at Taupo with a hot car, then what do you know, next meeting 3 or 4 turn up with hotter cars, and so the dreadful spiral started. Then someone puts the brakes on, usually MSNZ, and we all start from scratch again. I suspect Bob, that given the opportunity, you would hop into a nice Anglia and have a go again, and as you have nothing to prove on the track, would enjoy the ride. And as we are talking safety on this thread, you MAY have decided to stop racing because of your age, your health, or whatever, or maybe you just ran out of money like the rest of us, but you looked a happy chappie at the festival doing what you do well...talking about the 'good old days'.

[jim short]

Dead right Amco I am off to Taupo soon as Geof picks me up ,he returned to Auck last night as his Juno v8 has hopfully been fixed ,Never have I seen a race like last Taupo. the computer made no sence nomater what{wrong password}to give the 740bhp Camaro over half a lap start and real it in was unbelevable .like the old days the jags streaking ahead then the mini out braking them third was a ex LE MANS r s r PORSCHE THEN A aUSSIE V8..It all comes down what you like ,If he was not racing I would stay home and watch the ST follow each other at Ruapuna As for complaning about the folk who run the event perhaps you can do better certanly sound like it, but I shure hope this site does not get like the ten tenths

[Rod Grimwood]

Upto us not to let it degenerate into that Jim, and i hope it does not. Have a nice day and i look forwaed to seeing you in the Juno ?

[Trevor Sheffield]

Russ/Bob,

Thanks guys, I had become a little disheartened, presuming my comments had been too subtle and gone over the heads of all current readers.

It is pointless to argue the points raised. Much of sport involves danger as an intrinsic ingredient. Watered down those sports become insignificant.

QED.

Trevor.

[Oldfart]

All this has gone a long way from the title of the thread!

[Wal Will]

I am not sure if I am alone with this, but I dislike the concept of safety issues being compulsory. I am not against helmets on pushbikes, or seat belts, helmets, HANS devices, whatever, I just object to the point that we are forced to do it/wear it.
There is no doubt that I would still wear a helmet and fasten seat belts whilst racing if it was not mandatory, but it should be my choice.
I am 71 and hope to continue with my racing for a few more years. I hope it will be my choice when I stop - and not because someone somewhere has decided that age should be a barrier.
I think that if forced to do things by 'them', one tends to hand over resonsibility, and starts to assume that 'they' will be in control of your fate. I for one was pleased to see the 'use by date' on seat belts relaxed. I am sure the supplier/manufacture chain was not, because they were the sole beneficiaries.
At the moment I don't wear a HANS device, I will alter that choice in the light of changing circumstances. If someone somewhere were to make that compulsory I would have to think serious about continuing to race. I want the choice to be mine.
I am all for regulations that protect third parties, but we have to be responsable for our own safety. If it is thought that something aids driver safety, then it should be recommended, and information supplied as to why. The choice should be given to the only person it applies to, you the driver.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Kia ora Wal Will,

You hit the nail on the head!

Trevor.

[Dave Silcock]

Could not have put it better myself well said

[Oldfart]

Absolutely

[Grant Ellwood]

There seems too much emphasis on the rollover accident, you can have plenty of health threatening incidents with out a roll over. Which is why I choose to wear seat belts in my Cooper Vincent. I was driving a Cooper Bristol at Wigram once when I was hit with a fair amount of force in the left rear wheel while exiting the hair pin. I was later shown a photo of the incident and to my surprise both arms where flung above my head and my whole upper body was out of the car and my helmet almost scraping the track. Rollbar or not I'd still have belts.

Regarding belts, a friend in NZ sent me a recent issue of New Zealand Racer, I guess it is free and available NZ wide. Issue 176 has a great article by Bernie Gillon about safety harnesses, in particular the benefits of poly versus nylon belts. I picked up a lot of new info, perhaps we could get permission to have it published on this forum?

[ERC]

I have only just found this thread and I have a few safety issues - which are probably a mix of the transport authorities rather more than MSNZ.

Firstly - why are harness belts illegal for road use?

How is it that you can race a car legally in NZ without harness belts?

Once a car is built and has its first warrant, then regulations change, how come it is suddenly illegal/unsafe?

How is it that 100's of examples of an imported car are on the road in NZ, then regulations change and you can no longer import that model, but the others can can still run?

With an authority card (for belts), if you just change the brand of belts, to another approved belt, you have to present the car to a scrutineer and apply for a NEW card?

If like my car, (the Marcos) which has a removeable diagonal bar from the rol over hoop (no cage) to the chassis, you will fail a WoF with it in, but the car is OK and perfectly legal on the road (or track) with it out.

The original seat belt mountings were no more than tabs welded on to the square section chassis, but a reinforced plate, tubed and threaded mountings for full harness belts only, with no facility for a lap and diagonal when we restored the chassis, somehow now renders the car a racing car and cannot then be used on the road with those strong, wide, belts without an authority card, yet the originals belt mountings were dangerous?

How come you can use a 15 year old lap and diagonal 2" belt every day on road and track, yet up until recently, a $400 harness used 5 or six times, had to be dumped like a pottle of 2 week old yogurt, because it was "old" at 5 years and 1 day?

Why aren't gloves compulsory?

Why the obsession with fire extinguishers in all cars when we all know that they are generally so small, they are ineffective and often, your number one priority is to escape the vehicle altogether and not scrabble around to unclip it (now two clips required and not one)?

Cage safety is for the driver's benefit, steering and suspension items are for both driver and other competitors safety, yet I know that even the most fastidious of drivers can have a component fail with dire results - I know, I nearly hit a TR6 that was flipped on its roof when a component failed, at Pukekohe.

Safety, now we have belts and hard hats and fire resistant gear, is at the point of diminishing returns and we are not running F1 cars. Many of us are running road cars and at speeds that in many cases are not that fast, when the average modern hot hatch accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, has ABS, airbags and brakes that are much better than ours.

So, safety and risk is all relative but the red tape is often strangling us.

[Dave Silcock]

Well said, these things need addressing sooner rather than later. It has been said on other threads 'what are we doing to to even retain our present stock of cars and drivers' Removing some of these obstacles would go along way to ensure we don't lose any more.
Must talk to you about my Jaguar and the series you run.
Cheers Dave.

[Racer Rog]

With the Southern Classic series, any damage at Skope would be checked at the ENZED meeting the following meeting, and anything happening there would be checked at Invercargill the next weekend, the series Auditors keep at good eye on what has happened, but according to the book, any damage must be noted in the log book and signed off at the next meeting, some competitors get abit anti when that happens, but hey shit happens!
Roger

[Trevor Sheffield]

ERC ---

I have only just found this thread and I have a few safety issues - which are probably a mix of the transport authorities rather more than MSNZ.

Firstly - why are harness belts illegal for road use?.

Probably due to the fact that they are inconvenient thus preventing regular use and would fit only the one driver. Anyone else could find it difficult to use the harness and there would have to be rule limiting the car to a single driver.

How is it that you can race a car legally in NZ without harness belts?.

Are you saying without a harness or belts, or without harness type of belts?

Once a car is built and has its first warrant, then regulations change, how come it is suddenly illegal/unsafe?.

You presumably are referring to MSNZ. Because the regs. are being constantly upgraded due to ongoing paranoia. WOF regs. have been changed but are aligned with given dates and are not especially onerous.

How is it that 100's of examples of an imported car are on the road in NZ, then regulations change and you can no longer import that model, but the others can can still run?.

For good reason laws can not be enforced as being retrospective.

With an authority card (for belts), if you just change the brand of belts, to another approved belt, you have to present the car to a scrutineer and apply for a NEW card?.

Possibly as a means of ensuring that mechanically the change has been carried out correctly.

If like my car, (the Marcos) which has a removeable diagonal bar from `the roll over hoop (no cage) to the chassis, you will fail a WoF with it in, but the car is OK and perfectly legal on the road (or track) with it out..

Please advise the exact position of the bar. In respect of the WOF, would it endanger or adversely effect a passenger? Have you been made to be remove it for motor racing? If so is it being portrayed as a danger, rather than an advantage? If so this is strange logic.

The original seat belt mountings were no more than tabs welded on to the square section chassis, but a reinforced plate, tubed and threaded mountings for full harness belts only, with no facility for a lap and diagonal when we restored the chassis, somehow now renders the car a racing car and cannot then be used on the road with those strong, wide, belts without an authority card, yet the originals belt mountings were dangerous?.

Refer to answers to the first question raised.

How come you can use a 15 year old lap and diagonal 2" belt every day on road and track, yet up until recently, a $400 harness used 5 or six times, had to be dumped like a pottle of 2 week old yogurt, because it was "old" at 5 years and 1 day?.

The powers that be, restrict themselves to abiding by international regulations to cover their back sides, rather than the covering the interests of those who constitute Mew Zealand motor sport.

Why aren't gloves compulsory?.

Because some drivers find them clumsy, liable to a catch in controls and very much a disadvantage. Damn it, surely drivers must be left with some freedom of choice and not be forced to always conform with the opinion of others who do not necessarily know better.

Why the obsession with fire extinguishers in all cars when we all know that they are generally so small, they are ineffective and often, your number one priority is to escape the vehicle altogether and not scrabble around to unclip it (now two clips required and not one)?.

Tradition and the fact that changing the existing rules would require effort on behalf of the powers that be.

Cage safety is for the driver's benefit, steering and suspension items are for both driver and other competitors safety, yet I know that even the most fastidious of drivers can have a component fail with dire results - I know, I nearly hit a TR6 that was flipped on its roof when a component failed, at Pukekohe..

Agreed, but what is your point? These items are covered as a result of scrurineering.

Safety, now we have belts and hard hats and fire resistant gear, is at the point of diminishing returns and we are not running F1 cars. Many of us are running road cars and at speeds that in many cases are not that fast, when the average modern hot hatch accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, has ABS, airbags and brakes that are much better than ours.

So, safety and risk is all relative but the red tape is often strangling us.

Absolutely, but why do you insist on driving g gloves? ( I am aware of the advantages in case of fire, but also of tactile advantage when driving a car.)

Otherwise you point out and confirm the very reason I gave up motor racing. Refer posts #32 #62 #64 & #69.

[John McKechnie]

Hi, in regards safety issues i have a serious question and that is the drivers seat.Can some knowledgeable person tell me if the original front seat on my falcon XA Coupe is allowable/eligable. As a HMC car I want to keep this car accurate.I dont want to put a purpose built race seat in, or have to weld my frame together to make the back fixed.The seat does not have recliners, but has the tilt mechanism for access to the back.