Brendon did drive very well and yes we are really pleased.Originally Posted by Wal Will
This still doesn't explain why we were able to do it with standard shocks and a $5000.00 rebuild on the engine.
When you buy a car you usually get at least 1 engine and arebuild should make it good for a season.
Other people in the field were running their own cars just like us and they also did very well.
Brendon did drive well and we are very pleased.
That still doesn't explain the standard shocks and the $5000.00 engine.
Maybe people are using the wrong engine builders.
Formula Ford doesn't have to break the bank as we have proved.
Some of the other competitors also ran their own cars and very successfully as well.
Yes hard to believe, I am wrong with the cost,,its pos to buy a race mtr, $15___25{way over the top } but pos or prob.. to get a real good one 5000 a yr. to freshen it up,shocks yes can be over $10,000 ,ask Owen what he spent on two cars,Will be worth it when Mitch comes through
Yes and therein lies the problem, FF is so successful as a training ground to launch a young fella on an international career that money spent is regarded as an investment in the future!
Anything that can be improved, however slightly, by having unlimited money spent on it, will be done in order to tilt the playing field in the young proteges favour. Posters have mentioned shocks, data loggers and engines as areas that require rethinking. We need to try and get back to the original concept of FF as a low cost formula.
I also agree with Howard Woods post from earlier today.
In my opinion the solution is a combination of options above. Stay with the Kent but introduce an TRS engine control lease scheme. Then also the control shock option, with shocks appropriate to class of car. Maintain other control items such as clutch, flywheel, inlet manifold.
Class of cars would be split 4 ways, combination of Historic and Modern to give a NZ FF Championship (with North & South Island Championship within).
Class 1 Post 1992 (Mygales/Stealth/etc); 3 way shocks lease engine compulsory. Basic data acquisition.
Class 2 1990 to 1996 (VD, Swifts); 2 way shocks lease engine optional
Class 3 1982 to 1989; Historic Class; 2 way shocks lease engine optional
Class 4; pre 1982; Historic Class; single adjustable shocks lease engine optional
Engines/shocks and other control parts provided by single provider with clear cost model to manage an appropriate margin for provider. Tyres reduced to maximum of 3 sets per session. Historic classes optional for control parts.
Championships run across Tier one and two and if required Historic/club events. Plus with FF festival each year!
Benefits of above; cost control and a more even playing field. Plus it gives a destination for young and old regardless of age of car and location.
Just my thoughts....
Brent Main
PS, I run the ex Kevin Ingram Keram in Historic championship. Shameless plug, the car is for sale on trademe. I want to move to a more modern formula ford so happy to look at trades for the magnificent Keram!
Last edited by Maino; 03-15-2013 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Spelling!
One of the issues I see is that a car is only required to be 100% compliant when it is competing in the NZ Championship and even there another issue arises in that it does not have to be compliant while testing, even at a NZ Championship round. The legalities only come into effect once Official practice has started. What we have seen is cars running with 4 way adjustable shock absorbers fitted during testing and then once set up as close to perfect as they can be one of the adjuster is removed from the shock absorber and sealed off. It now becomes a 3 way adjustable shock absorber and the car is compliant once again. Money talks and if I come back to my earlier posts about back to basics as Ford Motorsport were talking about, a control shock absorber would be part of the car specifications
Well after some thought ,and looking back over fifty years plus ,money will never make a beter driver,a good driver will win most times in any simila car,Nuvalari proved that over and over.Mitch had good backing and why not ,he will hopefully reach the top, but Ritchie won the title,both natural drivers, Dixon strugeled for money to start and who begrudges him his success,then again I know a lot of drivers with tons of money and never in a hundred years will they be any good,.Barrys car is how they all should be,a good basic car
Just re-reading all the posts in this thread because this subject is close to my heart.
No one has addressed these points (or rather this one repeated point) regarding moderns racing with the historics. Since this site is firmly planted in the historic/classic camp, surely someone here could comment......
Thanks,
Russ
Okay, Brendon did drive well and proved those chaps in Nelson Right----He is a good little ???? I except the engine cost because his old man is a straight bloke (except when he dresses up in womens clothing) BUT Barry, how much did these standard shocks cost???
Remember? you did tell me.
Simple two way shocks would assist in keeping costs down by a big chunk.
ps. If I come up with $49,000 does the Porsche come with the driver?
Russ,
A true FF supporter and a voice of reason. I agree!!! let's hope someone at MSNZ takes notice! I've never met Crunch but if anyone at MSNZ is going to take notice then surely this man, the only one so far from MSNZ with the balls to front up.
Yes I agree, massive kudos to crunch for fronting. I'm sure life would have been a whole heap easier for him just to stay away and bury his head in the sand. That someone of his standing makes himself available to competitors and appears to at least consider, and answer where he can, all the various concerns expressed makes me think maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel after all.
However, I don't see providing racing with historic FF for late model cars is the responsibility of MSNZ, rather it is up to the historic competitors and organisers that would have to allow them to race with them. Lets face it, initially the numbers aren't going to be that great, so whats wrong with a handful of moderns running around at the back of your fields? The average Joe Public can't tell one single seater from another, so its hardly going to impact on the image, and if they are running way behind the historic field why should the historic drivers care?
That is another point to be considered Russ but it still does not address the exorbitant cost rises that have stifled the class over the past decade.
In recent times MSNZ has addressed some of these costs, and I agree that the potential for excessive spending needs to be more readily contained and it would be good to see a move before next season to restrict data loggers and shocks. And in the longer term go with the Honda motor as that has been developed to be on a par with the Kent with regard to performance, so no instant obsolescence for the Kent runners.
But is that really what's stifling the class?
There is a hell of a lot more population and hard core money in the NI than in the South....... But the top four serious competitors were South Islanders and the majority of them were running on minimal budgets. There is no reason a similar number of North Islanders couldn't have competed with them on equally minimal budgets.
In fact, looking at the population disparity between the Islands, one would think that if the SI can provide four competitors then the NI should have had a dozen! That would then start to give us half respectable grids.....
Think again, is it really a cost issue? If so, why hasn’t that stopped the SI guys as well….
Why is it that southerners currently find themselves the mainstay of, and leading competitors in, the FF class?? Certainly not because they are all spending megabucks, quite the opposite generally.
What is different between the North and South Islands?
The main thing that I can think of, is that we currently have a six round SIFF championship, which incidentally this year was won by Michael Collins with James Munro runner up. It is a competitive and close fought championship, and both these guys brought their cars back from the NI to compete in the final round the week before Taupo. As I have stated before, it is a serious championship and provides competitive seat time before embarking on the National Championship.
The northerners lack anything remotely similar.
That in my view is the major reason the North Islanders are not supporting the FF Championship. If there was a successful FF northern racing infrastructure outside the National Championship then there would be cars and competitors to draw upon. As it is there is nothing.
Sorry, I’m starting to sound like a broken record on this one, but it’s all too easy to say the demise of FF is due to excessive costs. The South Island has proved that this is not so. It’s the lack of racing in the NI that is the problem.
Now, how can that be addressed?
Does anyone even want to address it?
Last edited by Russ Noble; 03-24-2013 at 05:02 AM. Reason: typo
There was a lot of discussion at HD at the weekend on many topics and one thing that popped up regarding the stepping stones, might be worth considering.
Not so long ago, it was karting to FF and the onwards and upwards. Now, there is fairly strong evidence to suggest that the very successful BMW E30 series might be a cheaper stepping stone, especially for acquiring racecraft. Let's face it, any control series with a high number of regular competitors with plenty of rounds, has to be worth a go and as that is a north island only series, it may be one possible explanation.
Maybe. But E30 into TRS would be a bit of a quantum leap.......
I take on board everything that you say, Russ. No doubt the Nth. Is. could do with a man such as yourself who has the belief and the wherewithal to back this. However, as ERC has stated, maybe here in the Nth. we just have too many options. Bloody sad for single seater people but maybe this is the reality of it.
I agree with Russ on that one. The difference between open wheel cars and 'Tin Tops' is chalk and cheese.
Having just done a couple of seasons in 'Clubmans' I can attest that there is a whole lot more contact and lack of finess involved when you have a bit of bodywork around you.
Interesting looking at "Mylaps" website and in particular the times for the FF cars at Taupo March 8/9/10.The lap times for the current cars and the Historic FF's were surprisingly not all that far apart-2 secs a lap in practice between pole position (a current car) and the fastest Historic FF. Maybe it was a mistake splitting the FF class into two and a good case could be made for combining them?
Was it actually split into two, or did it just evolve that way? This happened at a time when I was away from the racing scene so I'm not sure of the scenario. rf84's suggestion of recombining them has a lot of merit.
There is the provision of a Pre 93 Class in the National championship so the historics do have somewhere to race amongst themselves in the NZ Championship without having to foot it with newer cars that are less than 20 years old. It is interesting though that given the strength of the historics in the NI that the only car competing in that class was one of our SIFF competitors .....
But yes, if the Historics in the North could be incorporated into the National Championship with suitable concessions from MSNZ re entry fees, HANZ, seatbelts etc., that would be great. So long as the Historics actually wanted to do that. One would have to hope that they would. And I would also hope that MSNZ could get their act together on that as well....
Once they are talking together and competing at the same meetings then maybe as an extension of that the historics may decide to open the ranks in their Historic Series so the modern cars could also run with them under some suitable arrangement so the drivers could get seat time.
That to me would appear to be the most reasonable solution, but is there the will within MSNZ and the Historic racers to make that happen?
I guess it is good that this is being discussed on a historic website and I hope a lot of those guys might take the opportunity to chime in with their thoughts.
After all an FF is an FF, the regs they are built under are very little changed from forty years ago. I am not at all surprised that there is only a few seconds lap time between them. The incremental improvements from year to year are relatively minute.
So who in the NI is going to get in behind this and get the ball rolling?
Or is it just a good idea that will fail due to lack of interest, and/or no-one local to champion it, and/or an unwillingness on either side to find an accomodation?
Last edited by Russ Noble; 03-24-2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: correct mistakes
Good post Russ.
I am running a meeting at Hampton Downs April 21st (MONZA/ERC). Historic FFs are already invited (they turned up with 14 last year) and I see no reason to not accept a modern FF if anyone wants to enter. I'll just make sure the ASRs include FF & Historic FF. It is as easy as that as far as I am concerned. Entry fee will be under $200 and a guaranteed 1 practice and three 8 lap races. Will that do?
Entry will be electronic via the Motorsports entry website and will be up shortly just as soon as the ASRs are finalised/approved. (Deb is flat out with the ITM400 at the moment and she is our race Director and CoC!)
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