Roll cages

Update: After a pleading email to the certifier, he arrived on the doorstep tonight.

The other stuff needed for LVVTA has now been OKayed but he is still not happy about the front cage, even though it is now boxed in and does not intrude into the passenger compartment. However, he now needs to seek further authority from above, to ignore its existence. Equally, as a scrutineeer, until that has been agreed or sorted, he can't sign off for the authority card for harness belts and FIA seats.

If he cannot get that cage ignore authority, then he has pointed out where the front cage can be removed, meaning all of the cage above the dash bar and forward of the main hoop, which seems to be on the cards at the moment.

It is looking increasingly likely that I will now need a back operation to fix the loss of use of my left hand, as a result of working in an awkward position for too long, on boxing in, or hiding the front cage. I am still awaiting feedback from the higher authorities at LVVTA to see if hiding it, so that my head can't hit it, is OK. Sadly, the loss of use of my left hand also means the loss of work where I am often required to carry out time studies, using a clipboard and stopwatch in my left hand. Work is maybe scarce, but I still need to be able to do it!

As I pointed out to Crunch in a private email, the ongoing effects of this rule change could never have been envisaged at the time, but it also raises an issue regarding classic motorsport.

If we are running cars over 20 years of age, then shouldn't the rules of the day be sufficient? In other words, changes to any technical rules to classic and historic cars are generally irrelevant. If someone wants to build a stronger cage, so be it, but for those with older cars that are in sheds because of rule changes that render them unable to compete without extensive modifications, should surely be allowed to compete if they want? How can some people adopt a purist attitude, then demand that an historic car is extensively modified just to conform to today's standards? A degree of hypocrisy?

Whilst we still have a commission (and I hope that we keep one), shouldn't they have the right to veto any changes from the race commission or technical department, as applied to classic/historic cars? I think the commission probably needs a bit more power than it currently has in this area.

Great news! The helpful guys at the LVVTA in conjunction with the certifier, believe the cage will add strength to a shell not designed the way modern cars are, and are therefore happy to treat this as an exception to their normal rules - as long as I remove the 'false ceiling', and allow it to stay.

LVVTA in a few days achieve what MSNZ are unwilling to do and the key word is 'unwilling' - which sums things up quite nicely.

I've been following along this tread...but somewere along the way, I lost the Plot. Can you post some pics to show were you ran into trouble so other folk don,t make the same errors :)

Anyone building a cage today to MSNZ specs using the 44mm tube for the main hoop will not have a problem Horizon. It is those of us who started a project years ago and rules changed before the paperwork was lodged. Not a problem for too many people as most people don't take this long to complete a project!

The plot as you put it is convoluted when a cage NOT using 44mm tube or in any other way does not conform to a published MSNZ design, has to have an engineers report before MSNZ will pass it. Unfortunately, the test requirements for a so called freeform cage are so extreme, that it is our belief that even if the car was built to the MSNZ design, it would fail the tests demanded by the MSNZ technical department for the free form cage.

A cage however, does not have to be approved by MSNZ in all cases, but may come under the requirements of the low volume criteria for modified cars (LVVTA). If the certifier is not satisfied that it meets the LVVTA criteria then the car will not be allowed on the public road. In my case, the certifier successfully lobbied on my behalf, but I have to remove the 'false ceiling' that I built to hide the cage. "Can't see it, can't be there..."

If the cage is MSNZ homologated, then along with other items such as full harness belts, FIA seats etc, MSNZ issues an Authority card that is renewed annually along with your race/rally licence, provided the car has a log book that shows it has been used at least twice in competition, as full harness belts etc., are otherwise illegal in a NZ road car. (Don't ask me why - a government directive.)

There is a 20+ page document/form put out by LVVTA that is COMPULSORY at any stage of the modification/build process, whereby their committee meets once a month to process such applications and they may well reject any modification and will advise the builder what has to be done to comply, hopefully before work has not advanced too far. This has to be accompanied by a full set of working drawings for the front suspension where it has been modified from standard. (Mine has.)

Only when the committee has fully signed off these modifications and the certifier is happy that all is in order, can a LVVTA modifications plate be issued, that is then attached to the car before it goes either for compliancing for a new car or one where the registration has lapsed, or in the case of an existing road car, for a (WoF) Warrant of Fitness, then road registration.

From then on, at WoF time, the inspectors will refer to the LVVTA plate and if any further modifications have been carried out, they can and probably will fail the car. Equally, if stopped by the police, they too may insist on checking the car against the plate.

The 8 year build progresss of my own car is on one of my websites so if you want to see more, send me a PM and I'll send you the web address!

Great news Ray, but is this any closer to you being able to race it at any level other than club sport? Or have you, like me, given up on the Evil Empire and the Troglydites that inhabit it?

Our own series is not a problem Dave, because cages are not compulsory anyway. Compliancing are happy as long as the certifier is happy - which he now is, having gone to bat on my behalf. Once that plate is issued and the compliancer is happy, then normal WoF rules apply.

I see no problem with the regular scrutineer but he may want the "false ceiling" putting back in again! (A ten minute job.)

However, I keep coming back to the point that the cage was built to MSNZ regs before they changed and there are 100's of cars out there with a document that says their's are OK. They do not have to update them.

If the test requirements are changed to be more realistic, then there is no reason why homologation could not be achieved, but having now got this far (almost on the road and more than likely able to be raced if required) then quite frankly, why would I bother?

Without this thread degenerating, I foreseee major problems ahead between the licence holders - and particularly the classic set - and the governing body unless there is a rapid mindset change from some people.

Have you gone the LVVTA route Dave, out of interest, given the body shape of your car interior is not exactly a million miles from mine, or is yours not a road car?

It has been brought to my attention,that a number of cars that raced in Europe in an FIA Controlled Series,were factory entered cars that had been homolagated and whose cages were passed as legal in Europe by the FIA,were not passed in NZ by MSNZ as their cages did not comply.
My understanding is that MSNZ is an organization who carry out various tasks that are issued by the FIA.It would now appear that those entrusted with carrying out those tasks, as per FIA's regulations are in fact regulating as per a set of rules and regulations dreamed up by those members of the MSNZ staff, who are enforcing NZ only regulations on the NZ licenenced competitors. This would not only be an illegal intrusion on the rights of all NZ competitors, but would controvene the FIA regulations.
There appears to be many of the actions of those involved with the MSNZ organization, starting to have a distinctly bad aroma, with many of the actions that have taken place to be boardering on probable litigation.
Contery to many peoples beliefs, I am not anti MSNZ,what I am anti, is the little (and Bigger) Hitlers who are damaging motorsport in this country by getting their ego's mixed up with common sense and decent logical desicion making. There also needs to be 100% more transparency as " whether those in the staff of MSNZ organization like it or not" the competitors are the members of MSNZ, the staff are the paid servants.
Mark Coulthard.
ChCh.

Specific examples Mark?
Or just more Chinese whispers...

If you are referring to the NASCAR trucks, that has been sorted as a positive, I am not aware of any other H&C cars that are genuine Schedule K that have been declined.

I was referring to some BMW's and sorry not more chinese whispers, Fact.

Are these classic/historic BMW's?
I will follow up with the Tech Dept on Monday and report back.

I have responded to Dave Silcock privately. I now have an exposed non-homologated cage that presumably the LVVTA will now accept as OK for road use in my case. Dave raised the issue as whether or not his car would be eligible in our series. The answer to that is yes - but as the car is South island, sadly, it isn't going to happen.

The next issue now is that according to some scrutineers, if the cage is not visible nor able to be hit with your helmet, it doesn't actually exist. That is the tack I was going down and that means that once the car is on the road with a WoF and an LVVTA plate, you have a legal road car. Presumably racing any road car in such a guise is entirely up to a scrutineer or specific race entry rules.

However, if MSNZ's current stance is in anyway advanced so as to either make cages compulsory or to demand excessive additional bars to meet some weird test results, then the future for classic racing is indeed very grim indeed and it seems to be currently driven without that degree of common-sense and appreciation for history we all crave. "Allowing in period cars as long as photographic proof is furnished" but ignoring a car constructed to period rules is illogical.

Apart from the H & C commission, I think we need a statement from the very top of the MSNZ heirarchy as to where they see Classics & Historics fitting into NZ motorsport and how current, past and future technical regulations, should apply - or do they have zero interest in the sector?

Hi Guys this Isue scares the shit out of me as I am in the middle of rebuilding SID111 so with the present rules the role cage will have to be replaced .After trying to get the cage OK;d for the CONCEPT sevral years ago the then top tec steward did not know what A space frame was ??? Jamie A

The BMW;s are former European Touring Car Championship Factory team cars, not all from the same team or year.

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Originally Posted by jamie

Hi Guys this Isue scares the shit out of me as I am in the middle of rebuilding SID111 so with the present rules the role cage will have to be replaced .After trying to get the cage OK;d for the CONCEPT sevral years ago the then top tec steward did not know what A space frame was ??? Jamie A

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Jaimie-can you send me a pm please.

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Originally Posted by jamie

After trying to get the cage OK;d for the CONCEPT sevral years ago the then top tec steward did not know what A space frame was ??? Jamie A

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Think you may be pleasantly surprised this time around Jamie for the current ones do. Then again, becasue they do .........??

Just as an aside re the 2nd fire extingusher mounting strap. Yesterday I was stewarding a gravel hillclimb and as a result of a car hitting a bank and spining down the roadway the fire extingusher which I understand had been secured by the old single strap method plus a ziptie, detached its self and flew out of the drivers window which was open less than 150mm and then landed on the roadway some distance from the car. That extingusher had to get past the drivers head.

Think about it and realise that some of the changes to regulations regarding safety actually are for your own well being. Maybe in the past some of us have just been downright lucky.

Easily solved, do not have extinguishers in cars. Either a properly fitted,remote activated system, or no missiles in the car.e

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Originally Posted by Carlo

Think about it and realise that some of the changes to regulations regarding safety actually are for your own well being. Maybe in the past some of us have just been downright lucky.

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A fair comment, but how far do you go? It is called progress, but there is nothing worse than seeing a 1950's Connaught with an exterior roll cage!

I have long questioned the point of carrying a tiny extinguisher in a circuit car given that if fire erupts, it is either

a) too fierce to be controlled by a 1kg extinguisher anyway

b) our first thought is going to be to get out as soon as as humanely possible

c) hopefully within reach of a fire marshal - though I have major concerns there, as I do not consider them sufficiently well equipped to deal either.

Equally, there is no such thing as 100% safe motorsport.

Given that we now have over 100 years of motorsport history, we reached the law of diminishing returns years ago. Any changes to safety from about 10 years ago will have had an overall negligible effect on car safety and sadly, as we saw at Teretonga, we still get an occasional fatality.

As regards the incident mentioned, if the extinguisher was secured by a cable tie, how on earth did the driver expect to remove it to activate it?

Perhaps they shouldnt have batterys either...or more zip ties!!
Deleted URL to utube, not allowed to access oh well at least he parked it close to the fire marshall!....Uh oh, looks like we are not allowed to upload that... go to youtube & seach under 'car crash at teretonga' uploaded by 'brodie racing'..

Doesn't look like that battery had any bracket holding it in place at all.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Sollitt

Doesn't look like that battery had any bracket holding it in place at all.

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I haven't seen the clip. It is no longer available, so I have no idea as to the details, but in NZ for the past few years, we have had each driver sign a declaration that their car conforms to the scrutineering requirements, which thankfully, means you no longer have to throw a sickie on a Friday whilst the scrutineering team tries to get 250 cars through. Instead, getting scrutineered after your third event (or is it after the second?) cuts down the initial workload by at least 50%, leaving scrutineers to prod and poke throughout the meeting.

If any driver appears at a meeting without the battery secured, then they are 100% responsible, but some cars have a retaining lip at the base of the battery - but as I said, I haven't seen the clip.

The clip is still there, you have to enter it in the search field as Jac Mac said.
I've lost count of the number of rally cars I've tossed off cliffs or planted in trees over the years and I've not had a battery break free of it's bracket yet. In the clip it certainly appears that the battery is simply sitting inside the plastic battery box with no other anchorage.
Then again, I've never had a fire extinguisher come loose either.
Carl's point is well made however I tend to agree with you Ray. There is an adequate and appropriate level of safety which I think we achieved many years ago. Changes made more recently serve only to provide discussion fodder for the sport's politicians and to fatten the wallets of equipment suppliers.

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Originally Posted by markec

The BMW;s are former European Touring Car Championship Factory team cars, not all from the same team or year.

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Hi Mark
I have had one of the Tech people in the office on Saturday to check this out.
As of then there are NO fully compliant International cars including BMW's that have not been able to be processed.

There was a recent case of a BMW imported into Christchurch without any paperwork and had never seen any competition, but the owner (Mike Lea?) wanted it certified, but this is in direct contravention to the regulations. However MSNZ and the Tech officer(s) in CHCH did a lot of extra work to eventually help the owner to go thru the steps to successfully gain a certification.

So I have no idea which BMW's you are talking about and the Tech Dept has no records of them.

If you have any more info, let me know.
Cheers

Talk to Warren Good

I come back to what I've stated previously. It's not for PC wankers to put a price on my head, it's up to me and the price is a buck!!!
If I want to race with a piece of exhaust tube above my head then that's my choice, not for some other superior, do gooding, bastard to do so.

Is MSNZ TAKING A VOLUNTARY STANCE ON FREEDOM OF CHOICE? I't wouldn't surprise me! A group of self interested do-gooders with little interest in the future of Motor Sport in NZ.

Boys! you've blown out competition costs for the true enthusiasts-----take a look at FF as an example....once we had qualifying for grid positons, now we have a maximum grid of eight cars. WELL DONE MSNZ!!!

If anarchy was a choice we'd shoot the lot of you!

ps. Hats off to Crunch for having the guts to be counted and responding to grips.

Hello Russ

The Formula Ford scanrio is a bit off topic, but it's demise is due to a number of factors, not all in the pervue of MSNZ.
In fact three years ago I was charged along with a small group to sort out the mess. This group made recommendations that werent accepted by the Exec of MSNZ AND the Formula Ford Association.

Perception of costs is a huge factor in Formula Ford at a Championship level. People thought you had to spend hundreds of thousands of $$ to win. Not true. It has been proven that you can compete at around $5K per meeting including all costs. But people choose not to believe it, they prefer to listen to the horror stories of 5 to 6 years ago.

Maybe another factor could be the use of what could be termed old technology in the Kent engine. However with minor changes over the last few years, these have been reliable and you should be able to do the season with one engine and use it the following season.

Formula Ford needs a kickstart, but the impedious for this to happen needs to come from the Formula Ford Association.
Send me your email address in a PM and I will send you the report we put together 3 years ago.

Yes; MSNZ has made some cock-ups, but they are not solely responsible for the state of Formula Ford.

Crunch- thank you for all this information you are giving. I also hear info around the campfire, never heard of recommendations that were not accepted.

Back to Mark's enquiry regarding BMW's belonging to Warren Good being declined certification...the database shows Warren has three BMW's all with the appropriate current paperwork including an HTP. There are NO applications from Warren that are pending, void or have never been accepted.

So not sure where the problem is Mark, if there is one at all.

As for Jamie's enquiry, the SID 3 is a Schedule K car in it's original specification. So the roll protection as long as it is the same as period is not a problem.

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Originally Posted by RUSS CUNNINGHAM

If anarchy was a choice we'd shoot the lot of you!

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...would need a big bullet for me.....howitzer? or maybe one of those WW1 railway guns??They were cool.

Seriously; I'm not gonna defend MSNZ as a whole because that would be seen as self-serving. But part of the MSNZ you wish to shoot is the H&C Commission who do work tirelessly for the competitors, within the framework of the Strategic Plan and the MSNZ Manual App.6 If the job they are doing isnt working for you or your motorsport, then please suggest changes that can be submitted as remits to conference. Now is the time to do it as car clubs have the remit forms in thier post boxes right now. Please submit your ideas, except maybe not a remit about shooting us...

Fair point Crunch, but without reawakening the debate on conference votes, I'd suggest that many of those able to vote would have no idea as to the issues that many of us face. Without a more licence holder based representation, the system is flawed anyway. To suggest changes via the clubs isn't that straightforward either, given that in many clubs, active racing members are a minority and the racers may only have one vote on a club commitee.

Russ Cunningham's post might be a little strong for me, but I'd suggest that his comments and perception would be echoed up and down the land, especially from those who would be nodding into a pint of Old Speckled Hen rather than supping a can of Lion Red.

I'll ask this two part question as it I believe it is relevant: "Does the current H & C commission have the right to overrule the Technical Department in classic matters" (I think we know the answer to that), and secondly, "Is it going to get better or worse under the proposed restructure?".

These are important points as word around the various camp fires is that the future is not looking too good and if we are going to get a lesser representation than we do now, it may indeed be to our benefit to align with the VCC.

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Originally Posted by ERC

Fair point Crunch, but without reawakening the debate on conference votes, I'd suggest that many of those able to vote would have no idea as to the issues that many of us face. Without a more licence holder based representation, the system is flawed anyway. To suggest changes via the clubs isn't that straightforward either, given that in many clubs, active racing members are a minority and the racers may only have one vote on a club commitee.

Russ Cunningham's post might be a little strong for me, but I'd suggest that his comments and perception would be echoed up and down the land, especially from those who would be nodding into a pint of Old Speckled Hen rather than supping a can of Lion Red.

I'll ask this two part question as it I believe it is relevant: "Does the current H & C commission have the right to overrule the Technical Department in classic matters" (I think we know the answer to that), and secondly, "Is it going to get better or worse under the proposed restructure?".

These are important points as word around the various camp fires is that the future is not looking too good and if we are going to get a lesser representation than we do now, it may indeed be to our benefit to align with the VCC.

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At the moment Ray; all we have is the current system. That is what we have to use for this year's AGCM. Remits have power, whereas discussion in the workshop sessions tends to get lost. Having said that; if it is easier to submit your ideas for discussion in the workshop which could result in remits passed the following day in the general council, please email me on crunch1@xtra.co.nz with the subject Conference Discussion Point. I will ensure discussion happens, but we are time limited and remits to the general council get a better airing.

Answer to first point is that the Tech Dept can only over rule the H&C Commission on the grounds of safety. Nothing else.
Answer to second point...god, I hope so. You guys arent the only ones frustrated! There will still be an H&C Commission, otherwise I shall take Russ and his shotguns with me to see the President and rest of the review panel!

The future never looks good to a lot of people, to me it's looking really good as you and others have illustrated with regards to competitor numbers and the show I saw from the grandstands at the Hulme Festival. The whole Commission will be at the Legends of Speed meeting in a few weeks to see the same, and answer questions, share a beer....

I wouldnt consider any benefit at all with aligning with the VCC for motor racing purposes, but that is my personal belief based on some instances that have happened in the south island. I hasten to add that the Waitamata branch of the VCC does a perfect job of the Roycroft Trophy meeting...another great day out.

Now back to roll cages. My question is why am I struggling to fit through the bars into this year's Subaru Rally Car??? Does the new material spec have a shrinkage factor??

Who still drinks Lion Red and what is Speckled Hen?

Ray I'm sure has devoured gallons of 'Old Speckled Hen', and he will give us a good description of it, but here is mine.

A strong English BITTER bear. Probably as far removed from Lion Red as it is possible to get. Can be found in all GOOD supermarkets, but probably rejected by 'Leon Rouge' drinkers as being too expensive. Best drunk not too cold.

As some of you guys here know, I have been lucky enough ( or unlucky, depending upon your point of view ) to able to sit with the rest of the H & C Commission along with Ross Armstrong, and sometimes posting on these forums can be a rod for your own back, so I give my full support to Crunch for sticking his head up over the turrent. The H & C Commission is a very hard working, and I believe the hardest working Commission in MSNZ, and one of the reasons for this is that it has to cover such a wide range of vehicles and issues in the fleet, and there would not be many days when the in box of all are not full of issues that we have to discuss and deal with, with out trying to piss anybody off, nor prevent them from racing which some have accused us of, the Commissions latest task is one of looking forward, or future proofing, and these subjects have been touched on within these forums, and one in which the talking stick will be banged on the table many times in the coming months, and as Crunch has said we need constructive feed back, not the whinnings that have appeared here at times, and then the same people wont front with their thoughts to the Commission, which has in turn, to give thought to all involved in our side of the sport, we all know that there has been a raft of problems within MSNZ, its not an easy fix, and personally I agree with some of it, but not all, and really we can only deal with what we are involved with at this point in time, as there is so much of it, so we need constructive feed back, be at H/D on the 23/24 March, we will all be there.
Russ, FF, go the way of the states upgrade the engine to HONDA, they are using the Honda Fit engine, standard, you can't do a damm thing to them, long term way cheaper than the KENT engine ( dear old girl ) but it does bring the class into the 20th centary, and HPD in the good ole US of A has developed the package, you can supply and work on your own engine, but it must remain standard no alterations at all, and they will supply the wiring harness drysump and inlet manifold and ECU. they have a restricture plate and the HP is the same as a top running Kent, no one else, agrees with me, but personally I see it as a way forward for us and the Aussies.
Rant over
Roger

Next time you go to Taupo, especially for a classic meeting, follow the MG guys to see where they eat/drink!... Old Speckled Hen is closely aligned to the MG Marque.

Just for the record AMCO, and as about as far as you can possibly get off the topic, I have never been a beer drinker (I prefer an occasional cider...) but having enjoyed a visit to the Speight's brewery, and had the health benefits of their product fully explained, I now down a bottle or two a week in summer - but with a generous slug of lime juice to avoid rickets.

I will be at the Legend's meeting and staying overnight Saturday, so will catch up there. If I can somehow or other get the (still unfinished) Magnette down there, it will also be in place for the Roycroft the following weekend. However, I have had to stand down as Commentator, as I'll still be awaiting the spinal operation and still not mobile or fit enough (or fit enough to finish the Magnette) - but I'll try and get down again for that great meeting too at some stage, even if only for a couple of hours. Great cars, great people, great spectacle.

Yes, probably at the 'Jolly Good Fellows'......also great place, with great cars, great people........the MG brigade.

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Originally Posted by crunch

Perception of costs is a huge factor in Formula Ford at a Championship level. People thought you had to spend hundreds of thousands of $$ to win. Not true. It has been proven that you can compete at around $5K per meeting including all costs. But people choose not to believe it, they prefer to listen to the horror stories of 5 to 6 years ago.

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Not wishing to hijack the thread but, as a mere spectator unaware of the costs of racing, does FF really cost $5,000 per meeting??!! Phew!

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Originally Posted by Racer Rog

Russ, FF, go the way of the states upgrade the engine to HONDA, they are using the Honda Fit engine, no one else, agrees with me, but personally I see it as a way forward for us and the Aussies.Roger

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Hmm, but wouldn't that make it Formula Honda?!

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Originally Posted by Lotus7Alfa

Not wishing to hijack the thread but, as a mere spectator unaware of the costs of racing, does FF really cost $5,000 per meeting??!! Phew!

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Yep! but then, you think of traveling from Riverton, ( and yes I do know where that is, we used to have a crib there, or batch to all N/Islanders) to Levels at Timaru for a weekend racing, classic style, entry $200 to $300, fuel about $200 towing a trailer, two nights saying in a motel $250 to $300, race fuel, $100, feed and water the troops all weekend $500, so even at that level its not cheap, you are looking at $1400, and that not taking into account wear and tear of your car, now if you are running in Tier One FF, there are all the other costs if you want to be near the pointy end, with the top guys spend upto $30000 for a engine at the start of the season, lap the valves in at every meeting, and maybe a stripdown between meetings to keep the performance of the engine upto the 117 Hp they now seem to get out of them ( original 68 hp), so you can see that the costs can mount up, you can do it a lot cheaper, and many do just that, but if you want to win, well that's another story, and there are many here who could tell you a tale or two about what that costs.
But in saying all that, we are very lucky here in NZ, that we get so much bang for buck, whhen talking to one of the English FJ drivers, he put into perspective when he said, that at the levels meeting, he got as much racing in one weekend as he did in one whole season back in the UK, over the weekend, which starts on Friday at Noon, we ran 50 races through to Sunday at 4.30 in the afternoon, an very slick operation thanks to the SCCC and The Classic Motor Racing Club.
Roger