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Thread: Historic Sport Sedans

  1. #41
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    Yes ERC. Looking through the VERY small entry list so far for the Festival, since when was a Porsche, any Porsche a SALOON car????????

  2. #42
    Where can one see the entry list?

    **EDIT** Was just talking to Mum and Dad, and they remember the Addis Charger, Dad said there's no back in the car it's all engine!! I've never seen the car run, too young, so I'll enjoy checking it out. It looks marvellous in the picture John, thanks for the updates.

    6 weeks and 5 days to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Andrew Metford; 11-30-2013 at 07:42 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Yes ERC. Looking through the VERY small entry list so far for the Festival, since when was a Porsche, any Porsche a SALOON car????????
    Exactly Gerald, let alone a `muscle car'. Yes Brian Foley and Co raced them with Fahey, Coppins , etc years ago, and they run them in TCM in Aussie, but please.... If you aren`t allowed a Chev Corvair in HMC, can someone tell me why Porsches are allowed. The rule should be `Pre `78, front engine, period correct' With the amount of race meetings these deformed VWs can race at during the year its pretty pathetic to accommodate them in HMC.

  4. #44
    Andrew- there is no real back, as the rear wheels are where the race frame finishes, The frame behind supports the body.
    When you are here you will be able to view it, allow yourself , as a fabricator- a lot of viewing time.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAFA View Post
    Where can one see the entry list?
    It was in the newsletter from either HRC or Hampton Downs.

    Don't get too hung up about the Schedule K Porsche. I would imagine that at this stage, it is only a provisional entry list and from experience, up to 10% of entrants enter in the wrong class at just about every meeting! Organisers at an event like this (ie. non-series/championship) will presumably look at the entries and double check before printing the programme.

    My own take, for what it is worth, is that some form of speed grouping some of the entries, might well be something worth considering. It works well enough at Manfeild. It is still chocolate fish racing.

  6. #46
    I believe the entries are half down from last year but the ticket sales to the public are double for the same period!! The Festival organizers are doing there best to promote this as a more "true" historic meeting a bit like Goodwood, Monterey, etc but the problem here is in NZ is we've had 30 plus years of no direction of proper classic car racing, the Aussies beat us to this back in the 80's along with the rest of the world!! so what happens is why would you race your "proper" Historic/Classic Escort(with history) against one with a home made YB all aluminum 325HP modern engine with computer management system? our country is full of mofidite hotrods so one would wait and see what the grids are first!! and i don't now about you guys but this year has been a tuff one financially so for most its just sit on your hands until the last minute!!

    And the lack of understanding on this forum of make, models, etc and how certain cars are categorized doesn't help as well, the early 70's Porsche's(google it) were a 2 door 4 seater car as sold by the manufacture and hence considered a saloon car, this is WHY they got raced with the saloons here and overseas back in the day(watch some old youtube footage) once they removed the rear seat they became a "Sports Car" i've just had this very discussion over 240Z Datsuns as they are a 2 door 2 seater(Sportscar) where as the 260's and up are 2 door 4 seater(Saloon car) can you guys see were this is going or am i the only one!!

    This "Sports Sedan" class has had a major push by a few good people to get these cars out and there owners along for this event, and to continue it!! and yes it will be a premier attraction but the easiest way to really piss the owners off and never see then again is to allow super-fast "modern" modified mofidite home made NASCAR powered vehicles in that group that will lap Hampton considerably quicker just to satisfy a few who want to see a 40 plus car grid, that to me is NOT historic/Classic car racing, Now i know some will say you need numbers to pay the bills, well i say just let the organizers worry about that as its not our concern!!

    Dale M
    Last edited by Kiwiboss; 11-30-2013 at 10:14 PM.

  7. #47
    The Addis car is enough to draw a huge crowd all on its own. I can't wait to see it in action because I was overseas when the mighty beast raced. I'd always hoped it would make a re-appearance since the Classic Car magazine article reported that it was sitting in a shipping container untouched. Made a man drool, that did.

    Dale, I hear what you are saying but it's tilting at windmills to think it's not going to happen - there will always be hotrods at the front of the field. It's simply not possible to have it any other way and the most money spent will generally equate to the best results. There are also cross-over cars in many fields - of the Porsche/240/260Z variety and surely it's better to have lenient organisers than hard nuts whose MO is to ban things that don't quite fit the mould.

    As a committed spectator, I also enjoy the battles though the field and the classic racing at Hampton Downs certainly promotes this sort of action. The Escorts and Alphas may not be at the front, but spectators can still enjoy the way those guys throw the cars around, webers howling their delighful symphony. Last year I hugely enjoyed John McKechnie throwing his 'new' Falcon around, lifting front wheels - because I had followed the car from being a near-wreck on his rebuild thread. Great entertainment - and showing that there is more to enjoying life as a spectator than just watching who is at the front.

  8. #48
    I am biased as I race a 240Z but I agree with Shano, in 1970 in the SCCA C-Production Class the season long battle was between the Alfa 105, BMW 2002 and the Datsun 240z the Datsun won. Now some 40 years on these cars can’t run together at an Historic Festival because one is a sports car. Surely a grid can be made up of cars of a similar age and performance.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Yes ERC. Looking through the VERY small entry list so far for the Festival, since when was a Porsche, any Porsche a SALOON car????????

    As mentioned before, along time ago. And history (this is historic meeting) will show this in different countries (NZ included) and at differing years and class's.

    There is one 'front porch' that some one wants to run just as a fill in until his (well known) Sports Sedan is ready, and to help with numbers in field. He knows it is not 'win a farm' racing and would/will behave as expected.
    I think the powers to be will sort this out accordingly, and don't forget, the 'Historic Racing Club and it's people' have given a lifeline to the Sports Sedan/OSCA etc cars, and is/will be managed by them as they see fit and with a little help from us if needed.

    This is not a world championship, but a great offer to give these cars a run and stretch their legs together, so lets not make it hard.

    Cheers
    Rod
    Last edited by Rod Grimwood; 12-01-2013 at 01:07 AM.

  10. #50
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    Agree with Shano and Rod (and Ricky). Quite frankly, I don't care a stuff who wins. When not driving, I don't go to see winners. I go to a classic/historic meeting to see and hear the cars and come away with 1,000's of pics and memories of chatting to all sorts of people. It is what the festival is all about. I'll probably enjoy the track demonstrations as much or more than some of the race classes.

    Dale, we all understand your stance and you are one of the main supporters of chocolate fish racing, but all those who have bought tickets in advance want to see cars being exercised. Much as we all admire Goodwood and everything that Lord March has achieved, and much as we'd like to think we can emulate it, we just can't. We are too small, too distant and have too few historically pure cars to ever make an oversubscribed historically pure festival that ticks all the boxes. It doesn't matter how dedicated and passionate the proponents are, sooner or later, reality has to kick in.

    The reality is that this specific meeting in one where once a year, we get to see cars that we may never see for the rest of the year at Hampton Downs, with no points at stake and drivers should be able to survive with zero panel damage - but we all know that when that flag falls, some people just have to win and they my well have the machinery to do it.

    If all cars are not historically pure, so what? We want to see cars, not empty tarseal. We are more than capable of ignoring those that don't light our own specific fire.

    This may well be going over old ground, but the support for this historic saloon class in particular, surely harks back to the days when it was anything but a level playing field?
    Last edited by ERC; 12-01-2013 at 01:46 AM.

  11. #51
    Sorry Shano you are wrong, the Festival is about old historic cars like the Addis charger and others within period and/or built to period rules not “Hotrods” winning the races, if you think he(Addis) will continue to race if his grid is filled with “Hotrods” and especially ones that are faster because they have modern components fitted I think your dreaming, tilted windmills or not it’s about drawing a line in the sand for these historic events or otherwise it’s not a historic event, one may as well been at Puke today. Some cars do cross over but if the organisers allow ones that shouldn’t then all you do is get rid of the proper cars, if the manufacture categorizes their cars as either a “saloon” or a “Sportcar” then that’s the grouping they should be in. John Mckechnie put in a fantastic effort to make the last festival and for you as a spectator it’s fantastic for him to know that his effort is appreciated but I’d bet John would also soon disappear if he was also in a field of non-regulated “Hotrods”, the entertainment is as much for the car owner/driver as it is for you the spectator!!


    You’re not bias Ricky, its understand you need because you see we never ran a SCCA C-Production class here in NZ, Australia, GB or Europe so for the purpose the festival based on the manufactures spec for your car, is it’s a “Sportcar” and as there is separate sports car and saloon car race groups you must go into the appropriate class, now this is not stopping you from starting a SCCA C-Production class for the festival(and other meets), you’rd have to run it by Jim, Tony, Chris etc and that way you would attract the type of vehicles that your 240Z ran against in period, now there’s a thought? but in the meantime how about just joining in for the fun of it.

    Ray, not sure if you do understand me? you say you go to Classic/Historic meetings to see the cars, what sort of cars? Hotrods like Shano mentions? period correct cars? or in between? Im sure the punters buying tickets go to this event to see old proper classic and historic cars otherwise why go, one could have been at Puke today otherwise!! I also don’t care who wins but I do care about vehicles been prepped appropriately for the grouping they race in at events like the festival, and this is what I like about your ERC racing class as you just handicapped the grid in accordance to performance rather than worry about any sort of historic or classic rules and as this country is full of over modified modernised hotrods you have huge numbers so it works, please carry on!! but to me the festival is not this and or is classic racing, to me people want to see a period Escort racing with other period cars without their alloy YB engines and computer management system but im known to be wrong? When I mention Goodwood or Monterey I use then as an example because I too know we will never have anything like this with our small population and country but surely for 2 weeks a year we can all just dream a little please? So the tarseal maybe showing this year but lets just have this event continue as it should be, some years are just better than others and that’s how it is sometimes? Not much tarseal showing at Puke today either!! Hmmmmm

    OK, hit me with it!!

    Dale M

  12. #52
    Even though I'm across the other side of the pacific, I think Dale is correct. There are lots of events to run the 'hotrods", so keep the Hampton Downs event a "signature event" for the period correct cars/Drivers.

  13. #53
    The name of this class includes the word Invited , reflect on this word.
    I am sure that the cars invited will be indicative of of this renamed class in the HRC spirit.
    We do know that Shano is drooling at the experience of the Addis Charger,
    And Andrew-JAFA- is in a similar state of excitement with the Algie Monaro.
    These are just 2 Historically pure cars and the reality is kicking in that these cars will run with their original creators and drivers .
    I would love to have my Team Cambridge Monaro there with its creator Spencer Black driving making up another Historically pure combination.
    Dale has pointed out that we need catching up time.
    These cars are out there and the owners know that we ,the adoring dedicated fans ,are waiting for them
    Last edited by John McKechnie; 12-01-2013 at 07:08 AM.

  14. #54
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    Yes John. Invited is in fact what the whole event is about, not just this class.

    Dale, you have a passion for a certain sector of the sport and have got off your backside, along with Steve and Tony to make it happen. With that hat on, no you are not wrong and I wouldn't try and shoot you down.

    But neither you nor I can speak for those spectators who make a real effort to support the Festival. It is pretty well a unique event in NZ and I accept Horizon's comment that we can see the "hotrods" at any meeting. However, I personally do not accept that there is any more than a handful of cars in that category, certainly within our own series. Fingers are always pointed at two or three cars - about 3% then of all our cars racing. Big deal.

    Can anyone convince me that all the F5000's are 100% pure?

    I ask this simple question: "Have the Festivals to date made money?"

    The Festival committee run the festival as they think fit and can make whatever rules they like. As far as I am concerned, it is getting together with enthusiasts from several areas of the classic/historic side of the sport and I am keen to see cars of all types and genres but what I am never keen on seeing, is either empty tarseal or a load of identical cars. The BMW E30 series is great for the drivers, but leaves me cold as a spectator and photographer. If the fact that they are all running to a tight set of rules is your idea of heaven, so be it, but it isn't mine. The fact that they may or may not have a CoD is also irrelevant.

    A field of identical Ford Mustangs would only be marginally better and that is mainly because they sound better and may be a bit more loose on the hairpins. (Sorry Dale...) Do you get my drift?

    The genuine interest in this historic saloon class is because those who built those cars in period, stamped their own individuality on the cars they built, within what I imagine to be a relatively loose set of regulations. The modern curse (from F1 down) is that everyone has to conform to an ever tighter set of regs and the designer's stamp is therefore lost. (Read Tony Southgate's comments.) It used to be OK to put a Corvette engine in a Ford Zephyr, put if you decide to put a period engine in a period saloon car now, you are met with a wall of either antagonism, disinterest or abject horror on one side "because it may not have been done in period" and unbridled enthusiasm on the other.

    It may offend the purists if a few older cars are not now 100% period correct, but particularly in saloon car racing over the decades, they have got progressively more and more bland.

    So to answer your question Dale, I go to the Festival and expect to see a huge variety of cars and come away with pictures that show that diversity, because there can be only one winner on the track and that may often be just because he has the largest engine or chequebook. I take no note of who wins as it means very little in the overall scheme of things.

    I don't go to the Super Tourers or NZ V8s though I did go to the Friday at Hampton Downs. I wasn't impressed and even the sports cars all look similar these days - and I have no idea what they even are anymore.
    Last edited by ERC; 12-01-2013 at 08:04 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Yes ERC. Looking through the VERY small entry list so far for the Festival, since when was a Porsche, any Porsche a SALOON car????????
    As the bedtime story goes, Once upon a time in Australia and also in NZ,
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. #56
    Dale know your point and you are right, but for now the purist original 'as she was in old days' boys and cars will run with the others until numbers are there. Also I believe the 'older' amongst us know the genuine Shell Sport or similar car to the carbon/re-engined new hybrid. They all have a place and until numbers request, will have to play together. Don't forget the one which has history and is there for a run most of the drivers don't eat chocolate anyway, it spoils the taste of the beer.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ERC View Post
    Yes John. Invited is in fact what the whole event is about, not just this class.

    Dale, you have a passion for a certain sector of the sport and have got off your backside, along with Steve and Tony to make it happen. With that hat on, no you are not wrong and I wouldn't try and shoot you down.

    But neither you nor I can speak for those spectators who make a real effort to support the Festival. It is pretty well a unique event in NZ and I accept Horizon's comment that we can see the "hotrods" at any meeting. However, I personally do not accept that there is any more than a handful of cars in that category, certainly within our own series. Fingers are always pointed at two or three cars - about 3% then of all our cars racing. Big deal.

    Can anyone convince me that all the F5000's are 100% pure?

    I ask this simple question: "Have the Festivals to date made money?"

    The Festival committee run the festival as they think fit and can make whatever rules they like. As far as I am concerned, it is getting together with enthusiasts from several areas of the classic/historic side of the sport and I am keen to see cars of all types and genres but what I am never keen on seeing, is either empty tarseal or a load of identical cars. The BMW E30 series is great for the drivers, but leaves me cold as a spectator and photographer. If the fact that they are all running to a tight set of rules is your idea of heaven, so be it, but it isn't mine. The fact that they may or may not have a CoD is also irrelevant.

    A field of identical Ford Mustangs would only be marginally better and that is mainly because they sound better and may be a bit more loose on the hairpins. (Sorry Dale...) Do you get my drift?

    The genuine interest in this historic saloon class is because those who built those cars in period, stamped their own individuality on the cars they built, within what I imagine to be a relatively loose set of regulations. The modern curse (from F1 down) is that everyone has to conform to an ever tighter set of regs and the designer's stamp is therefore lost. (Read Tony Southgate's comments.) It used to be OK to put a Corvette engine in a Ford Zephyr, put if you decide to put a period engine in a period saloon car now, you are met with a wall of either antagonism, disinterest or abject horror on one side "because it may not have been done in period" and unbridled enthusiasm on the other.

    It may offend the purists if a few older cars are not now 100% period correct, but particularly in saloon car racing over the decades, they have got progressively more and more bland.

    So to answer your question Dale, I go to the Festival and expect to see a huge variety of cars and come away with pictures that show that diversity, because there can be only one winner on the track and that may often be just because he has the largest engine or chequebook. I take no note of who wins as it means very little in the overall scheme of things.

    I don't go to the Super Tourers or NZ V8s though I did go to the Friday at Hampton Downs. I wasn't impressed and even the sports cars all look similar these days - and I have no idea what they even are anymore.
    Ray, although some groups are invited this has to be done because of the problem with all the "silhouette modified hotrods" in this country, it shouldn't be this way but is so because for 30 years there's been no decent categorization and/or organization of proper historic and classic saloon class's in NZ, its always been "build what you like" and they'll let me run anyway mentality!! thats why HMC is NOT an invite class and is open to all persons but all we ask is that your vehicle be to the set out rules and requirements and your in, pretty damn easy really!! You also only have to look to Australia with their booming historic group Na, Nc, Nb saloon class's to understand that if we'd done the same all those years ago we wouldn't have these issues, they have proven that by having a standardized across the board formula based on period correctness works and now have more period built saloons that ever before and are pretty much over subscribed so i don't buy into your theory of let all and sundry run. Australian Muscle Car had a great article about this group a few issues back and its worth the read.

    Yes i do have a passion for a certain sector of the sport but basically my passion is "historic saloon racing" that's as close to period correct as possible, but what DO YOU call close Ray? because i can take it that you find MK1 Escorts with YB midget car engines, computer electronics, carbon fibre, big wheels, etc OK but then on the other hand you mention F5000 may not be so 100% pure in your eyes!! not with you on this one mate because that seems like a pretty big swing in thinking to me!! they(F5000) still have the correct engines and size(haven't seen one with a NASCAR engine yet) no 17/18" wheels, no Holinger 6 speeds, still the same suspensions, well most will get the idea but what do you mean because some of the saloons i see these days make even a modified F5000 look pure if you ask me????

    When you mention Zephyrs with V8 corvette engines you are talking about another era of saloon racing that mostly was in this country pre 67, its was the All-Comers era when anything went before MSNZ adopted FIA group 2 then group 5 saloon rules to stop this as even back in 1967 they realized this class was out-A-hand, once again if anyone wants to start this era of racing as a historic class then go for it otherwise there's no-where to race, sometimes you just can't cater for every car or class that has come and gone(talking before 1978 here) but if you did start this group i presume you would find it acceptable to power a MK2 Zephyr with a modern NASCAR engine? for me, i think not!!

    As for the Festival making money or not its none of our business, off-course we'd soon know if they weren't wouldn't we! and as im not on the organizing committee or have any link to it i have no idea, im only trying to do my bit for "historic saloon car" racing and help out at the same time, all at my expense, makes me a mug doesn't it!! and also Ray a field of historic Mustangs(or camaros, Falcons, Monaro's and other V8's) period correct, noisy and slipping and sliding(and no not on 17" slicks) all getting around the track in a hurry would excite most people i know at any classic/historic meeting and even if only a few cars and thats why getting these old Sports Sedans out is important as only 3 or 4 will attract many spectators, oh the noise and smell

    And guess what? put 30 cars on the track and there can only ever be ONE winner!! the idea in H&C racing is to share it around and that is our intention in HMC as its more about putting on the show, most of these cars have already made all the history they're ever going to make so getting that one last final win won't make one ounce of difference !!

    Good night all. Dale M
    Last edited by Kiwiboss; 12-01-2013 at 07:16 PM.

  18. #58
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    Rod, like all bedtime stories its fantasy land!!!! I'm not sure what you are telling me here with this picture. It shows two cars which are definitely not saloon cars, one of which is a Porsche. I don't think even Jim Short would call his Porsche a Saloon car. In fact I think he would be affronted to hear it described as such.

    Incidentally, I wonder why whoever originally chose the name, called them Sports Sedans and not Sports Saloons. Maybe they already knew where the bulk of the cars would come from...........sedan being typically American, and saloon the English term for a vehicle with a fixed roof and at least four USEABLE seats. All the rest are either GT's or sports cars.

    And Dale, I am so glad that you are going to share the 'winning' around at the festival. The Guys at the back might like a shot at the front, even though ERC says he doesn't care who is 'winning'. Maybe a good chance to have some handicap racing.

  19. #59
    Monzas and Porsches were raced in sports sedans years back, that's the point and are not a new thing now.

    Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Corvairs, also American and with fixed rear seats ran as well, as you say hence the reference to 'Sedans' with the English saloons. Not many English saloons came with a V8 but converted nicely.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Grimwood View Post
    As the bedtime story goes, Once upon a time in Australia and also in NZ,
    Also "Once upon a time in Tasmania"....was a good bedtime story Rod.... a bit noisy but good
    Pic is
    Symmons Plains Tasmania over the Hump into what was pit corner
    Last edited by Ellis; 12-01-2013 at 09:47 PM.

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